Piano technique & Chopin Op10 no2

Sure, only as an exercise. However, I believe some do it in performance. Can't be sure here: However, they certainly don't sound clipped, even if the pedal may be helping. It certainly can though and does for very many. A lot of Alan's method is based on activity where 2nd finger and thumb act is a way where it's mechanically impossible for the knuckles to droop down. A hanging thumb is not impossible, but maintaing that position with mild activity makes it certain that the knuckles cannot sag. It's the basic premise of the stable arch. Line the thumb up right and the arch cannot collapse. Without the right activity between thumb and the 2nd, the arch sags under pressure unless there is stiffness. If by reaches, you mean hangs, sure. Reaching is not going to get you anywhere. And if you are finding that it does, then we are having trouble communicating due to differences in our piano technique "vocabulary." Seriously. If you are finding that compulsively "reaching" your thumb out helps you, then you can't possibly be doing what I am imagining you doing. Because... it won't help anyone. Not in this piece. Why so closed-minded about a tiny muscular activity? What's implausible about a slight sense of extending outwards? As I recall, this is the issue Alan's posts were about- helping the weaker fingers by concentrating on keeping this part of the hand stable. A limp thumb (as I said) is often rigid. And a thumb "reaching away" or "stretching out" is, without a doubt, a Why? Two things, firstly it trigger a reflex that keeps the 5th finger knuckle high, with very slight effort indeed. Without this, it's basically guaranteed that the 5th finger knuckle will not be anywhere as high as it can go- which risks flaccid slack when moving the key. Secondly, it's also interlinked to a slight rotation, that helps keep the fifth finger aligned through the plane of the key- not slanting off to the side with a droop. I don't believe I used the phrase "stretching out". It's a slight act of extending- not anything that is felt to stretch.

As far as the Margulis, can't be sure, given than I'm not watching him. But I've never anyone hold on when performing it. Cortot says the chord notes must be played staccatissimo - as though 32nd notes. (Though it is interesting to note, that while he maintains this as a condition for actual performance, he does - as Alan does - suggest an exercise wherein the thumb and index hold their chords for as long as possible while the 3rd, 4th, and 5th finger walk... of course, the exercise is to be played slowly). I do recall the thumb-index structure. He says the 2nd finger's top knuckle is the hand's pelvis. Put all of your weight on one leg. Lift the other one (call that leg your thumb), you're telling me that increasing muscular activity in the lifted (yin) leg makes you feel more secure on the grounded leg? Now do with the yin leg what you do on the piano with your thumb, namely, jet it out away from your body. This is a stable structure? I think we can both agree that, if you were to walk around jetting out this leg compulsively, you'd look like the guys in Monty Python's Ministry of Silly Walks. Please, don't consider me closed-minded about this. I don't want this to get dogmatic. I'm just trying (keyword, trying) to stay here. I'm a pragmatist. Jetting my thumb out compulsively, doesn't help me. If it helps you, you should also be a pragmatist. And do what works. But for the record, I've never encountered a pedagogue who suggests it. In fact, the opposite is the case. I haven't noticed this. And am not quite sure I understand what you mean. Rotation doesn't imply alignment. Fair enough, but if by reaching out or "extending", you don't mean stretching the thumb out away from the hand, I must apologize and say, I don't know what you mean.

This is a very different situation. Specifically, when you reach out with the thumb, it stops the space between the thumb and the second from closing. You can release to a point of almost not effort at all, but you can still bear enormous force. However, take the thumb out to the side and raise it upwards, and it takes phenomenal effort, if the knuckles are to bear force at all. This applies even if the thumb is not necessarily contacting anything. The position and the activity used to get it has a major effect on the structural integrity. I think you might be imagining a very different action. It's basically the same action that the thumb uses to keep the knuckles raised up, when overholding in the etude. It's not drastically different to a thumb that hangs- if you go about it in the right way. I've just been trying going back and forth between aiming for a totally limp hanging thumb and aiming to extend it out just slightly, rather than be totally limp. I found it valuable to cross-reference them. I haven't noticed this. And am not quite sure I understand what you mean. It's a little bit tricky to demonstrate through words alone, to be honest. Although having said that, just hold your arm out and give a "thumbs down". Can you feel the difference in your 5th knuckle, when your thumb is extending out towards the ground- compared to when you relax and let it come back in again? With the right experience, your 5th may not necessarily droop when you let go- but a great many hands will go between a primed 5th knuckle and a major droop. The thumb is intrinsically related. "Rotation doesn't imply alignment." Turning so the fifth knuckle side goes up and the thumb side down gets the 5th finger aligned. If you do the thumb extension in a specific way, it both helps to trigger this rotation into alignment and primes the 5th finger knuckle. I'll upload a video sometime to illustrate this. It doesn't "stretch" in the sense of discomfort or anything strenuous. Basically it's like a tiny remainder of the same activity that the thumb can use to keep the space between the thumb and second open, when overholding. It's just retaining a hint of that.

I think part of the issue is that, even though we are using a lot of anatomical terminology, the concepts we're discussing are quite abstract in the mind. Because, when you say this, I relate. I understand what you're getting at and am pretty convinced I do it. But still, reread the quote, and just appreciate for a moment how abstract it really is. When your thumb playing. Which in the end, amounts to a feeling, rather than a blatant physical action. I said earlier that I try not to let my thumb be "limp", because thumbs are lazy and tend to follow suit of the fingers, pointing in a forward direction, if left to their own devices. When in reality, thumbs are functional when opposing the hand. Thus, I said that I find a loose/not-rigid/stable/ready-to-play thumb to be slightly bent inward (slightly!) towards the hand. For me, I think this may be that "hint" of activity you speak of. After all, when I actually play the chords, my thumb isn't straight/extended. It would wind up playing on the fleshy side of my thumb, and my thumb would be bent back (wrong direction!) at the second joint. And that is not structural integrity! And it strips from the thumb its functionality (which is to oppose) and reverses is. So, I think for me, the "hint of activity" you speak of comes from essentially maintaining the playing position of the thumb, even when it's not playing. (Of course, I do not suggest maintaining the position. But just allowing it to happen effortlessly). I tried it and better understand what you're saying. For my purposes, I don't think I have particular trouble with this knuckle collapsing... I don't really find that my knuckles tend to collapse much at all. I have other problems to worry about... I still find "extend" to be an odd word to use. But I think I understand. And if you mean what I think you mean, then I agree that this is a good idea.

I see what you mean. However, I do suspect that there's a mechanical issue. It's probably nowhere near as big as in the example I gave where the thumb position makes the difference between extreme stability and knuckles that collapse easily, but I think there are cases when a tiny level of the extension action serves a surprisingly big physical purpose. It's been interesting to try it with the aim of an ultra-loose thumb as well, just now, though. It's been very useful to compare the two- in a bid to perceive exactly what activity serves a purpose and what doesn't. Thus, I said that I find a loose/not-rigid/stable/ready-to-play thumb to be slightly bent inward (slightly!) towards the hand. For me, I think this may be that "hint" of activity you speak of. Have you tried the outwards thumb at all? I don't remember if it's in any of Alan's books, but he's spoken a lot about the straightened thumb on the forum, as I remember. I used to use the same slight inward action, although I've since become pretty convinced by the extension instead. Not that I'm claiming I've since become Volodos as a result (or that inward bending is in any way invalid) but I do feel a lot freer when reaching out then when I geared it more towards gripping inwards. At the moment, I'm aiming to allow a slight bend of the thumb just before each chord and then extend back out to play it. I find this is the easiest way to get a very stable fifth finger. I've had to go virtually to vertical fingers, in order to properly eliminate the knuckle droop. Yeah, it might well be different issues. I'm coming from a place of having had severe 5th finger droop. I'm feeling a very big difference of late but I still have to be very careful not to slip back into sagging. At the moment, I'm in a position of needing to make sure I do enough with the thumb extension to keep triggering that reflex. However, I think it will be interesting to see what happens in the long term. When at rest, I'm starting to be closer to the primed position rather than going into major sagging.

You must be doing exactly what I am doing. Typing in the forum during practice breaks.

You must be doing exactly what I am doing. Typing in the forum during practice breaks. Yeah, just off to bed now though! Been doing some light night stuff on my digital. Just realised by the way, what you said about drawing the thumb inwards relates to something I've thought about a lot recently. I've been wondering whether the inward action helps precisely because you have to go outwards before you can be in a position to do it? When I worked this way, it was basically a case of first extending the thumb out straight and then slightly drawing the tip inwards. But now I've found it seems to provide all the same things by simply going out and not coming back in with the tip. Could it be that thinking about the grasping action works simply because of the position you have to get yourself in before you can do it? Recently, I find that I'm much more comfortable if I think merely of the thumb extending away from the hand. It's as if intending to start grasping but NOT actually going ahead with drawing the thumb towards the palm. I've come to suspect that these seeming opposites depend on much the same thing and that drawing the thumb towards the palm is basically an optional extra.

I haven't read all this but would go back to "what I am doing." Try playing the inner chords louder and the upper voice softer. Then get back to me. All best, Alan

I haven't read all this but would go back to "what I am doing." Try playing the inner chords louder and the upper voice softer. This helps me get my thumb + index off their notes quickly enough to move the arm over and support the melody (rather than getting stuck and letting the chords hold me back, getting me misaligned; in other words, it helps he maintain a "fifth finger" orientation). I try to "attack" the chords sharply, and am very much engaging my 2nd finger's flexor - almost a "cat scratch". It , for it to work. ~ One element is missing in our discussion. It's the one. It's terrifying to get out in front of people and expose one's "weak" fingers, unabashedly and uninhibited, for a minute and a half! Conquer your fear and treat it the same way you would any other piece of music. ~ I'll also excerpt a section from , which is an invaluable aid to mastering this work (Chapter 53: Creative Work with the Metronome: Pulse): ...you must be mentally and physically prepared in advance to generate each pulse. There must be a moment of relaxation prior to playing the pulse note... If you try to control the attack through tension, you have no hope of success... Try this: Step 2: In running 16ths in four/four time, play the three unaccented tones a little faster than metronomic speed. This facilitates the relaxation needed to make them really even, flowing, and unaccented. It also leaves you with time before you play the pulse note... This applies to op. 10, no. 2 for what I hope are very obvious reasons. Thanks Alan!

Excellent! This passage from playing the thumb-forefinger dyads louder helps things out. So now in your practice, exaggerate. Exaggerate the loudness of the dyads and the softness of the 16ths to the extreme. And also exaggerate (not to quite such an extreme) the rhythmic entasis that helps this begin to go. If done enough, I think practicing the dyads much too loud will even help you overcome the psychological element which I agree is important. Also have you read where I mention the old edition that has those dyads in quarter notes instead of eighths with an eighth rest? Another great way to practice: overhold the dyads! Jai, I think you were in on this discussion first time around about 2 years ago, weren't you? Do you remember which thread it was on? I have heard even as great an artist as Kemal really mess this one up in public, and that not so long ago! So John, you do have a point! AFF