Piano technique & Chopin Op10 no2

Hi Alan About the pain. If you turn your hand over between the "interossal"? muscles and the big thumb muscle (ie right in the middle of the hand where the creases are is where I got this aching. Its ok today although slightly feeling Ive had the ache. Also a little on the bottom of the thumb muscle (inside hand). I had a go at this study late last night as a casual before bedtime tinkle. And I felt I made a break through! I made a concious effort to bring out the forefinger voicing. Dropping the chords also caused a natural rebound. Well I say dropping but all the time I was thinking what you said "throw the forefinger and thumb". This worked in helping me balance the hand which also created an interesting line to boot! I hope I have absorbed this physical information enough to work on that this weekend and programme it in the hands. I have much I want to do musically with this piece so hopefully I'm getting somewhere as this has been a long frustrating journey so far!

I forgot to mention - the RH chords whilst throwing at the keys - whilst it created a natural rebound I interpreted this as having a slight rotation to the next note in the top but the rotation was not a concious one. But I'm wondering if this is correct and I exagerated the rotation in slow practice then maybe the choreography will be programmed for faster speeds where the movements will be reduced?

It seems to me that this is good pain. Those muscles are EXACTLY the ones that NEED to work but tend not to in most pianists. Of course, go slowly and gradually in building up their capacity for right work, but I would not let go the process that brought you to the point of feeling pain - I would just mollify it a bit... Difficult to give advice like this from such a distance, but that's how it seems to me... It looks like sitting further away allows you to access the full power of your body. I am talking about skeletal power not muscular. The skeleton assumes its natural shape more easily at that distance, so it's more available to participate in the support of your hands' right work... PS About the rotation, yes you seem to be on the right track there as well... AFF

Hi I just wanted to say I've made an extraordinary breakthrough!! I don't know how this happened only its been a case of practicing the 6ths in the Barcarolle with special attention to thumb & first finger to create the "bells" sound and also among other things the trilling thirds which I now do with the 4/5 I was having trouble with at speed!! (It's not surprising now that the etude in thirds has now begun with what I feel great promise!) Here's what I did one day. I wasn't really thinking about this etude and I'd been practicing parts of the Barcarolle all day. Then I started playing and something happend. I was ultra relaxed in my hand and my wrist was slightly hanging. My fingers moved what feels like an image in my head of a particular technique of a bass guitarist where the hand is hanging from a from the forearm resting on the guitar and the fingers move from the knuckles. I think this is an image of levers?! I thought I was playing relaxed until I discovered this and now I can feel what relaxed is!! Oh and my upper body is slightly slumped so I can actually feel weight on my torso/hips. I've probably subconciously got this watching Valentina Lisitsa. Now I can play effortless right hand chromatic and the thumb/first finger just drop-pokes the bass notes with the thumb actually bringing out a little more of the bottom notes of the chord naturally. It's actually a very powerful sound coming from not much effort. At first I thought this is a fluke and I'll never be able to get it back once I've had a break and stopped. It's amazing how the brain can continue the work in your sleep!! I'm keeping it steady at the moment to settle the feel in more but I gave the opening half page a whizz at 144. No aching! Actually there are a few things which have been falling into place.. the flat fingers, arm weight with sticky finger hooks on fast chords etc. Just goes to show when you think you are relaxed you can find some more! Today I feel I've reached another level in technique. Many Thanks Sharon

Congratulations! What a wonderful post. I like that your description of your process is very experiential. You are really engaging with this material and that's why your learning is so rich. Mazeltov! AFF

I've been toying around with this one lately. Very challenging. ~ Since the 5 - 3 and 5 - 4 crossovers aren't entirely different from crossing over your thumb, it's important to think of them more like shifts in hand position. So the thing to practice becomes: how to move most fluidly (and quickly) from one hand position to the next. For example: position #1 = A minor chord. position #2 = A#-B-C (with 3-4-5). position #3 = A major chord + 4th finger on d. Timing shifts from one position to the next is crucial. ~ Eventually, you're going to need a way to make the line flow, so that you can play it fast. I find that the wrist will make a supple shaping gesture on each beat. This is probably the most crucial part of the choreography, because it will take you from note-by-note playing to beat by beat and beyond. This is the way to get it fast. (You don't want the wrist gesture to be big. It's very actually. Watch the YouTube video of Garrick Ohlsson playing. These beautifully timed and highly coordinated gestures can be seen very clearly in his playing). ~ Another thing I found myself considering: Make sure that, during the crossovers, you're not allowing your 5th or 4th fingers to scrape up against the edges of the white keys. This unsavory friction against your finger is sure to slow you down. Not only does it feel unpleasant, it is a physical force working in the direction of your movement. I'm not exactly sure how I got myself to stop doing this, but just be aware of it if it happens. ~ Since your 3rd, 4th, and 5th fingers are more or less predictable (just chromatics), it's the first and second which are wildcards. I find that I need to get my hands "thinking ahead" as I play the running notes so that my 2nd and 1st fingers are naturally in position to play long before necessary. ~ I was also inspired to change some fingerings in a few places after watching the YouTube video of Mitsuko Uchida playing it. I realized she "cheats" in a few (very reasonable) spots. So, another thing to consider is fingering. For the most part, the 3-4-5 fingering is not only what makes it an etude, but also an absolutely necessity. But be aware of bars here and there where there is an exception to the rule, and be a real pianist: TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT. ~ Now, those were the things I've been discovering about the piece. I'm still having trouble with it (namely, I can play it fast... but not at 144bpm... more like, say 130?). And I cannot for the life of me figure out what I need to add to build speed. I'll think about it some more, and ask Alan.

Eventually, you're going to need a way to make the line flow, so that you can play it fast. I find that the wrist will make a supple shaping gesture on each beat. This is probably the most crucial part of the choreography, because it will take you from note-by-note playing to beat by beat and beyond. This is the way to get it fast. What exactly do you mean by this wrist gesture? Not that I want to sound like I've altogether written these things off, but I've always been extremely skeptical of many of the contexts in which the wrist is spoken of. Particularly in quotes from Chopin, there is much talk of the wrist. But how much can it really do- other than twisting from side to side or flapping up and down (which is obviously the type of thing that actually needs to kept to the absolute minimum possible). Is there really any kind of an active movement- or is it simply the need to maintain looseness and freedom (so reaction to the fingers moving the keys will be free to cause tiny movements)? As someone who tends to have far too much movement in the wrist (rather than keep it in simple alignment) perhaps I'm just coming from a different problem to some other people. However, I do tend to wonder whether what a master does is actually to keep these movements to the absolute minimum- or whether there's actually a small but specifically required activity. I actually tend to suspect that it's almost entirely about looseness and that any movements are purely passive responses. When I look at Ohllsson, it seems to me that his wrist movements are completely passive- it's just that he doesn't make the mistake of bracing it. I actually think the biggest mistake in this Etude is to strive to move from the wrist itself and then end up trapped in a poor alignment. If the wrist stays in good alignment to begin with, it's much less likely to start getting cramped up. It's just a matter of whether you're cramping up to force that initial alignment, or whether it's maintained by good finger movement and by aligning new positions with the whole arm (rather than reaching from the wrist).

What exactly do you mean by this wrist gesture? Not that I want to sound like I've altogether written these things off, but I've always been extremely skeptical of many of the contexts in which the wrist is spoken of. Particularly in quotes from Chopin, there is much talk of the wrist. But how much can it really do- other than twisting from side to side or flapping up and down (which is obviously the type of thing that actually needs to kept to the absolute minimum possible). Is there really any kind of an active movement- or is it simply the need to maintain looseness and freedom (so reaction to the fingers moving the keys will be free to cause tiny movements)? As someone who tends to have far too much movement in the wrist (rather than keep it in simple alignment) perhaps I'm just coming from a different problem to some other people. However, I do tend to wonder whether what a master does is actually to keep these movements to the absolute minimum- or whether there's actually a small but specifically required activity. I actually tend to suspect that it's almost entirely about looseness and that any movements are purely passive responses. When I look at Ohllsson, it seems to me that his wrist movements are completely passive- it's just that he doesn't make the mistake of bracing it. I actually think the biggest mistake in this Etude is to strive to move from the wrist itself and then end up trapped in a poor alignment. If the wrist stays in good alignment to begin with, it's much less likely to start getting cramped up. It's just a matter of whether you're cramping up to force that initial alignment, or whether it's maintained by good finger movement and by aligning new positions with the whole arm (rather than reaching from the wrist). The movements I'm discussing are subtle. If you tend to flap your wrist up and down, then maybe you should just completely ignore this comment, because it may not be good for you. The part of the video where these micro-movements are most perceptible is . In terms of passivity vs. activity: The motion of the wrist, 9 times out of 10, will feel passive. Don't try to control it. But you do need to be aware that this ebb and flow (I'm talking about a ebb and flow, not horizontal...that's called "twisting" and will not help you at all in this piece) is necessary. Otherwise, you may run into a different problem: locking up and not allowing your wrist to breath. In a sense, this wrist movement should happen on its own. Every time you play the thumb, you will have to drop a bit (an no, this does not mean collapse at the wrist; it just means that the thumb is the shortest digit and needs to be in a lower position to play). But the next note, your 3rd finger on a black key, will inevitably have your wrist rising () because 1. the digit is longer and 2. you're playing on a black key, which is geographically at a higher "elevation" on the keyboard than the white keys. Anyway, you've begun a sort of rising motion at this point. But of course, in two more notes, you'll need to let your thumb drop into its note again. Thus, you're going to begin a sort of falling motion starting with the 4th finger on the B. Eventually culminating in a drop into the E-A-C# chord. At that point, you're back where you started. Level. The motion I illustrated is what might be described as an "overshape" or an "overwave". Meaning your wrist ebbs up and then down. However, there are plenty of places in the etude with the other type of shape is necessary, namely, the "undershape" or "underwave." Which many might think of as a downward swoop, or an upside down arch, or whatever. I reiterate, if you tend to move too much at the wrist, perhaps thinking about these subtle movements is not so good for you. Because the whole point of them is that they're .

In a sense, this wrist movement should happen on its own. Every time you play the thumb, you will have to drop a bit (an no, this does not mean collapse at the wrist; it just means that the thumb is the shortest digit and needs to be in a lower position to play). But the next note, your 3rd finger on a black key, will inevitably have your wrist rising () because 1. the digit is longer and 2. you're playing on a black key, which is geographically at a higher "elevation" on the keyboard than the white keys. Anyway, you've begun a sort of rising motion at this point. But of course, in two more notes, you'll need to let your thumb drop into its note again. Thus, you're going to begin a sort of falling motion starting with the 4th finger on the B. Eventually culminating in a drop into the E-A-C# chord. At that point, you're back where you started. Level. It's interesting to read your description. I think the difference in how I view it personally is that (while tiny movements would go on) I'd think more at the shoulder end rather than the wrist. I think virtually everything that's need at the wrist itself is passive. When the correct responses are in place, I imagine it's possible to judge it at the wrist- but I do find it a little strange to place the focus there rather than on the origins of the movement, further back up the arm. I think we basically look at it the same- but I'd be judging the long line between finger and shoulder and simply allowing the wrist to follow. Personally, it's not that I tend to have massive wrist movement. However, just a small amount of reaching from the hand itself often causes a high wrist position that I get trapped in. Basically, the less I do at the wrist itself (without forcing it to be still) the better. I'm trying to feel everything at the finger end and the shoulder end, with the wrist being nothing more than the joint in the middle of a chain. When it comes to the wrist, I just wonder if its the most productive place to have active intentions- beyond looseness.

I think you're onto something here. In this etude, I tend to tighten up in my wrist joint. So I actively concentrate on these gestures I talk about. But you're right, the movements are engaged , not in the wrist itself. However, you think all the way up to the shoulder? If it works for you, do it. But I think maybe we should envision the movement's roots being in the elbow joint (i.e. the back of the forearm, rather than the upper arm, whose muscles are unwieldy and slow). The upper arm's motion is mostly for the purpose of want to be aligned while you play all of this. This etude is just too cumbersome to not be. ~ And as a closing note, I am far from having "finished" this etude. Far. I find it troublesome and cumbersome, almost to the point of discouragement. Which means: I have technical problems I am still working out. So I hope that my commentary is taken in a more exploratory fashion, rather than as the final word.