Piano technique & Chopin Op10 no2

"However, you think all the way up to the shoulder? If it works for you, do it. But I think maybe we should envision the movement's roots being in the elbow joint (i.e. the back of the forearm, rather than the upper arm, whose muscles are unwieldy and slow). The upper arm's motion is mostly for the purpose of want to be aligned while you play all of this. This etude is just too cumbersome to not be." I'm not sure. One exercise I discovered recently is to physically hold the upper arm on one side with the other hand. Then move back and forth from the elbow. I feel like a fool for saying this- but it really surprised me when I discovered that the elbow can hardly do anything other than take the hand from side to side or lift if up. I think any downward pressure from the elbow surely has to be (primarily) an illusion? I couldn't find any way without bringing it back to the shoulder activity. I think most of what is spoken of at the wrist is based on slightly pressing forwards/pulling backwards with the whole arm. Again, I think that thinking at the elbow can work, but I have a feeling that the most evolved understanding comes from dealing with what goes on higher up and then following the consequences further down the chain- to notice their passive effect on each stage of the way along. I strongly suspect that the further back adjustments come from the better. Personally, I tend to press forwards and get stuck- and am having to very consciously working on getting my right shoulder to pull back enough to straighten things out. With this etude in particular, I'm realising that a massive amount of my personal problems run right back to the shoulder. While the hand does the work of moving the keys, I think my problems are much more to do with the lining the hand up to be in a position where it can move easily- rather than with the hand's ability to move. Incidentally, not that I want to take anything away from what Alan says about the connection between 1-2 in the Etude, but I recently discovered that the 5th itself has been one of my biggest holes, of late. Since I've been aiming to get the 5th virtually vertical, it's eliminated the slight sense of "pinching" down that side of my wrist- which I think was related to ulnar deviation. I think the higher you can get the knuckles between notes, the more space there is and the easier it is to get a really good wrist alignment without tightness. This way my wrist is very high (in space), but not angled at all- i.e dead straight between hand and forearm. "And as a closing note, I am far from having "finished" this etude. Far. I find it troublesome and cumbersome, almost to the point of discouragement. Which means: I have technical problems I am still working out. So I hope that my commentary is taken in a more exploratory fashion, rather than as the final word." Absolutely, very much the same here. I'm encountering many interesting things with this Etude, but there's a lot to be done before I can find a magical approach that keeps things working really consistently.

I'm glad you wrote this. I typically think of moving my upper arm (i.e. from the shoulder joint) as a way of aligning my arm with my hand. And I think of the forearm being responsible for the finer movements of shaping and rotation. Of course, you can rotate without involvement of your upper arm/shoulder joint (not obvious involvement anyway). But you have brought to my attention that what I call "shaping" (i.e. minute arch gestures of the wrist) be accomplished without involvement from the upper arm. So... I do see why you're think from the shoulder.... Interesting! I typically avoid thinking about any movement as being from the shoulder joint, simply because the upper arm is slow and unwieldy compared to the forearm. So I've grown accustomed to thinking of finer muscle movements as being in the forearm. But here we have a case of a very fine movement that involves obvious participation from the entire arm. Fingers, hand, wrist, forearm, . Anyway, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I typically avoid thinking about any movement as being from the shoulder joint, simply because the upper arm is slow and unwieldy compared to the forearm. So I've grown accustomed to thinking of finer muscle movements as being in the forearm. But here we have a case of a very fine movement that involves obvious participation from the entire arm. Fingers, hand, wrist, forearm, . Actually, one thing occurs to me here. The brain can make adaptations to the point it perceives from. If you held out a big long stick, obviously it's easier to judge from the larger movement at the end of that stick, rather than the far smaller movement your hand makes to cause that. However, the difference here is that there's an additional means of controlling the equivalent to the end of that stick. If you think at the far end, you may end up using localised wrist movements in an inappropriate way- rather than judging the effect of the shoulder on this point. I think the latter of those is the reason for my skepticism and confusion about descriptions at the wrist. You see so many students twisting their hands to pass the thumb in scales- in a way where movement comes FROM the wrist, when it simply doesn't need to do anything much at all. This type of thing had always left me wondering why Chopin spoke so much about wrist movement. However, as long as it's clear that movement that is simply AT the wrist comes from the shoulder, it would make sense that it might be easier to judge this shoulder movement AT the wrist itself. I think that a great many people miss the stage of getting used to aligning the whole arm well from the shoulder, before they look to the wrist itself. However, I think I'll have to try shifting the perspective back and forth plenty.

Regarding the 5th finger, check out these entries from Alan's blog. ’s-role-in-piano-technique/

Regarding the 5th finger, check out these entries from Alan's blog. ’s-role-in-piano-technique/ Yeah, cheers, I'm familiar with those. This is something that I've been coming back to over and over again, over a period of many years. I used to have a droop that was so pronounced on my right hand, that I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that the muscles down the side of my 5th were literally atrophied. When picking up a dumbell, I hadn't been able involve the 5th finger in gripping it at all. I've made much progress over time, but over and over again I come back realise that I'm not behind the 5th enough. This time I'm working towards the vertical finger of Rubinstein- to be sure that there's not doubt whatsoever as to whether I'm going far enough. I recently went through Thomas Mark's book and the diagrams illustrating how the bones rotate in the forearm has been very useful. However, I think there's something deep down in my instincts that I need to completely get rid of. Recently, I've been thinking of dropping op. 1o no.2 and oo. 15 no. 6 completely for at least a few months. Although I've made a lot of progress with both, I still have a tendency to slip into angling the wrist ever so slightly and then going further and further. It's a tricky decision, as I do feel that both have been very useful for slow practise (with a mirror to check the alignment at all times). However, as soon as I just let go and "just play" the alignment gets screwed up. I can maintain it in bursts, but it hasn't gone deep enough that it will just happen all the time.

are you both familiar with my posts on Op. 10 #2 from a year or two ago? I wish there was a search function on this forum so I could find them easily... I remember Jai Jeffries was one of the guys in on that thread... AFF

are you both familiar with my posts on Op. 10 #2 from a year or two ago? I wish there was a search function on this forum so I could find them easily... I remember Jai Jeffries was one of the guys in on that thread... AFF Haven't been able to find that one. If you or anyone else figures out where it is, post it. I'd like to read it.

Here's what I've been doing. Start at the beginning of the phrase. For now, we'll just do the beginning of the piece. 1. Play the first chord into the A#. 2. Stop on the A#. Ask some questions: i. Did my thumb release and is it loose? ii. Are my finger in their natural shape? Or rather, to their natural shape, yet prepared for what follows... for example, when 3 is on the A#, you probably want to already have the second finger hovering over the Anatural, prepared for the upcoming chord, even though this may not be where the 2nd finger "naturally" falls. iii. Most importantly: 3. Repeat the movement from the chord into the A-sharp many times, and do it , always stopping on the A-sharp to inspect thumb, fingers, and alignment. 4. Now, go a note further --- to the B --- stopping and inspecting thumb, fingers, and alignment. Repeat many times . Do the same to the C. Then to the e-a-c# chord. Then to the D, etc. Until you complete a small phrase. Do this thoughtfully and carefully. If you're practicing with functional technique, and not just muscling through the thing, you should have accomplished a lot after doing this. Perhaps you've even perfected it, gotten it completely under control! A more likely scenario is that you can now only play the phrase at 144bpm. But I bet anything, if you're paying attention, you can figure out exactly where things start to break down. Start from the beat where your weaknesses come in, and do the same as above; with each new note added, check your thumb, fingers, and alignment. Now, I have only given three things to check for when you stop on a note. That's because these are the things I look at. Obviously, tailor it to your own technique. For example, do you tend to play with a sunken wrist? Well, add a question to your list. 'Is my wrist level... or has it collapsed?' And go from there.

i. Did my thumb release and is it loose? ii. Are my finger in their natural shape? Or rather, Sounds like a good approach. I'd just wonder about the first two points. Obviously the thumb shouldn't be stiff, but a slight sense that thumb is felt to be reaching out and away from the hand can be a huge aid to how the rest of the hand stabilises. I think I remember some of Alan's posts before- including the value of over-holding the thumb and second, as the other fingers move. Keeping some sense of thumb activity when releasing again helps keep that feeling. I think this is case where striving for looseness as an end in itself can risk allowing the knuckles to start drooping. I think there's a balance where the thumb is neither limp nor braced- but simply reaches slightly down and away from the hand. Regarding the 2nd finger, I'd just be wondering whether it would actually help to prepare quite so early? Presumably the forearm is going to be in a pretty continuous sideways drift. For that reason, if it's on the note too soon, it might actually have to brace in order to remain there, as the arm drifts to the side. Keeping a fairly consistent shape between thumb and second and allowing the arm to drag that across strikes me as the easiest way to prepare the chords. It strikes me that early preparation would actually make a life a lot more difficult here, rather than improve ease. Also, I think part of the problem is that loss of control is generally gradual in this etude. It can be hard to pinpoint an exact moment where there's a problem- as it's frequently a matter of slightly drifting out of optimum alignment, but not to the extent of causing disaster. By the time everything does break down, I think it's often a long way past the time where the real problems started gradually creeping in. In something like op. 10 no. 1 there are so many resets to the hand that it's easy to pinpoint a problem. Here, I think it's hard to narrow it down to the exact cause of a breakdown. It's more based on slow accumulation.

Since the thumb is most functional when opposing the hand, and since "reaching out" with the thumb is one of the actions most likely to create stiffness and injury, I simply don't see the point of "reaching out" away from the hand. Typically, I like my thumb to hang down, below my index finger, as it does naturally when my hand at ease. If by "reaching out and away from the hand" you mean, "hanging down below the hand," then okay. Sure. I wouldn't over-hold for any reason other than an exercise. It simply will not work in this piece. I do indeed do over holding as an . It would never work at tempo. Thumb is not connected to the knuckles. Not even close. A loose thumb will not cause "droopy knuckles." If by reaches, you mean hangs, sure. Reaching is not going to get you anywhere. And if you are finding that it does, then we are having trouble communicating due to differences in our piano technique "vocabulary." Seriously. If you are finding that compulsively "reaching" your thumb out helps you, then you can't possibly be doing what I am imagining you doing. Because... it won't help anyone. Not in this piece. In terms of "limp" vs. "braced." It's hard for my to interpret what you mean here. But I'll respond as best I can. Many people's thumbs actually tend to be rather tense in their "limp" state, straightened out and basically pointing in the same direction as the fingers. So this limp thumb isn't quite what we want either. We want a functional thumb. Slightly bent inward, toward the hand (i.e. opposing it). That is a thumb which is loose, ready for action. A limp thumb (as I said) is often rigid. And a thumb "reaching away" or "stretching out" is, without a doubt, a thumb. Oh yeah, and... In terms of preparation. Just prepare as early as possible so long as it isn't causing any issues. At the beginning, yes, I find my second finger is already preparing itself for the A while I'm playing the 3rd finger A-sharp. In other cases, prepping a note this early in not feasible, nor would it be physically efficient. Here, I simply suggest letting your hand work out what feels best. Because there is no rule.