Wrist Down Or Wrist Level/up & Fingers Flat Or Arched?

I've always played with an arch and not let the wrist break. However, I've seen several pianists -- all from Eastern Europe-- who play with the wrist down and fingers either arched or flat. I wonder about the difference in technique. Does the arch and it's opposite: wrist down give the same control & playing ability? It seems as far as playing, there is very little difference. I was at a recital given by a Ph.D graduate from the Julliard School who played the entire concert with his wrist even with the top of the key slip and fingers reaching up, to get to the keys. There was still an arch there but it came from the bottom and lifting the fingers up. It was very interesting to watch. I was no more than 20 ft away from this pianist. His playing was extremely good, but it seemed to go against everything I have learned. He was at Julliard on the Horowitz scholarship and studied with R. Serkin. Although I'm not to fond of Serkin's grandiose movements, still, he is none too shabby a performer/teacher & Julliard is a pretty good school. I would have thought if wrist down and flat fingers is bad, Julliard & the teachers would have corrected this or at least not given him his doctorate in piano performance. Obviously there are two, what seem to be very different techniques but either gives results. what's the difference? (btw) This fellow was from a former Eastern Block country. So, what is the difference between arched fingers with wrist level or up, and the technique of flat or arched fingers but wrist broken (down), that is used so much in Eastern Europe? Bob

GREAT observations!!! Your description of the guy who kept his wrist down at keyslip level is really cool! To answer your question will take some time and thought, but the first thing that comes to mind is that obviously both strategies are functional, or they wouldn't work. In my book I define the metacarpal-phalangeal joint as the keystone of the arch. Thomas Mark, in , says that the wrist is the keystone. Observing Horowitz, Rubinstein and others on YouTube, I found that for lower dynamic levels I am right, while for louder playing Thomas Mark is right. When the wrist is higher, a greater percentage of the actual transmission of force is achieved by the bones themselves. When the wrist is lower, the muscles will do more of the work, It depends on the pianist's physical and neuromotor style. I love both myself. "Hugging" the keys gives such a rich kinesthetic experience - the actual sensations of the keys are hyper-enhanced - the muscles are working in all sorts of detailed ways and because you are so close, you discover how to manipulate the key effectively at very low levels of actual energy expenditure. With the wrist higher, I feel more exuberant, more "Rubinstein-ish," and I am freer to make "bony" sound where the 'putta-putta" sound of each attack following the previous one is very satsifying and you're not even sure if it comes from bone-on-ivory (finger on key) or wood-on-wood (keybottom hitting keybed) - I guess it's actually bone-on-wood-THROUGH-ivory! At the moment I am working on expanding the possibilities inherent in the higher wrist, but I have spent a lot of times exploring the low wrist option with great results. I remember Horowitz in Montreal in 1975 sitting quietly before he started playing, the heels of his hands firmly resting on the keyslip and his fingers resting flat out on key. An unusual rest position but somehow wonderful (like almost everything he did!). By the way, I observed Yonty Solomon, a South African pianist who lived in London all his life and was a protege of Dame Myra Hess, and he as well had a great arch but an extremely low wrist. So it's not only the East Europeans! best wishes, AFF

thanks Alan. It's funny. I live very close to Brigham Young University. I have a former teacher and now, friend who lives a block away. He's a retired Ph.D from Eastman in piano. He spends a lot of time out of the country, as well as doing recordings & the Gian Bachauer competition. I helped him start that competition. I have technical questions, which I ask when I see him, but he puts me off--not enough time. I telephone (always have to leave a message) but get a call back. And here you are, a concert artist/author/musician/humanitarian--a very busy person, who treats me with respect and tries to help. Thanks so much. I throughly know what you mean about the danger of locking small hands. If I over-extend, try to go further than a 8va and into a 9th, I risk over-extending and locking. I can do the 9th but that's pushing it. If I go for a 10th I can do it, but that's locked. When I feel any tension in the stretch, I've usually tensed my upper arm. shoulder, and locked the wrist and fingers. The wrst & fngrs have to be strong but not in a "lock." A piece that helped me with that is the Listz Hung. Rhpsd. #6. I still can't believe how this student of Serkin and Juliard grad, played with wrists at the keyslip--I guess there are more roads to Rome than one (which reminds me, I was supposed to be in Rome in 2 weeks, singing at the Vatican, but a doctor's surgical mistake, has stopped my singing for a bit.-- maybe I could change my singing from being a countertenor to a Glen Gould pianist (ha))-- Many of my problems with piano technique come from being basically, self-taught and also learning harpsichord technique, early on, versus piano technique. There, I had no problem with hand size. Of course Chopin doesn't come out too lyric on a plucked string. And Yes, when I tried your suggestion (which I think is great) to do an 8va with 5 & 3, which really sets up the thumb spring to another note, then back, my thumb is relaxed, balanced on top, and 3 & 5 are at a full, 180 degrees. Even with that, I'm still 1 to 1.5 in. short or reaching the 8va. I can feel within my hand though, areas of tightness between the fingers that might be made, with the right exercises to loosen and spread the skeleton; but even then, I'm not certain if I'll be able to make up 1 1/2 inches. We''ll see. I will look further into the piano you mention. Thanks for telling me about it. I know too, that I can get a keyboard made to fit my hands, and carry it around for other pianos, but really wonder what that will do to the Renner action of my piano, as well as key balance. I'm thinking I should make the most out of what God gave me, stay with Bach, Schubert, Beethoven, Chopin & Schumann. Those I can handle and fudge the Rachmaninoff. --I would like to have the speed though to be able to handle some of the R. preludes and etudes, and 1 (just one) Prokofiev Sonata. I had a funny experience when learning the R. 3d concerto. It gets busy (where doesn't it!) up in the treble and there is a blind leap down into the low bass that's supposed to be ff. I did the leap and the ff part, but was too blind. I smashed the side of my hand onto the keyslip--ouch, ouch. --I don't do those things any more--thank goodnes. I wonder if you've ever had any misses, with power? Right now, I'm getting my Estonia, regulated, at a cost of $3,000. --that's because I'm so picky. And I'm even a piano technician and can help with the work! The playweight is too heavy. My techs, tell me most people (not a my level 0 would even notice. I wonder, what do you do when you run into a piano that plays like a tank and you have delicate cadenzas to pull off? The down weight on my instrument is ok at 52 g, although I'd like 48g. However the upweight, especially when playing ppp and the finger is making sound, right where the jack comes out from the knuckle, the upweight springs the key back with enough force to knock my fingers up and off its position on the key. Since the piano is really souped-up for repetition, and the let-off is very close, that slight push up on my finger, then stop, causes a double strike. But I'd rather have that instead of not being able to zip up and down the keyboard. Hopefully, working with the tech, we will be able to get a good compromise and my fingers won't be out of it's ppp position on the key, and still maintain the quickness the Renner can do. What do you do when things are so loose and super-charged that you get double strikes? Don't know if you've ever triend an Estonia. This one (I went through 32 pianos before I found it) is about as close as you can get to the sound of a Hamburg Steinway. It sings--which is great for Chopin, Schubert, Schumann--my favorite composers. Since Steinway was out of my $$$$$, I blew all my savings, maxed out the credit card and got it. And what a joy to be able to do things on it that cannot be done on an upright or even a good, grand. The head tech at BYU says it's a top-tier, upper 5% piano. Of course I wouldn't mind a Steinway or Fazioli or the like. But if we can eke as much out of this Estonia as possible, then try to incorporate your suggestions to get as much out of my body, I might be able to actually make music. It's so nice to close the eyes and listen for the melody and have it sing--or in Rachmaninoff, not only do that, but find the church bells in his works, and let them peal. Music is a wonderful thing. Thank you for given us what you have learned and are still learning. I've been rambling again. I will order the book and DVD, tonight. --for anyone reading this, pay attention to what Allen isays about the musculature/bone structure and how to use what's there to get the most out of what you have==he's on the right track. Bob, Provo UT USA

Hi Bob, Lots of rich stuff there to respond to! I like the idea of a community of searchers, so to me it is always a pleasure and useful to investigate together, and refine the expression of these ideas of mine which are still very much in a gestation stage. Thanks for your kind words in any case! My "Pancake Mash" exercise is designed to let you stay unlocked even in maximum stretch. This is definitely possible, I have seen many students' hands literally transform their size, shape and feeling from 'getting' this... Yonty Solomon very similar... I'm a former countertenor too! 10 years in le Studio de Musique Ancienne de Montreal way back when... PLEASE go read my article, Antecedents of Piano Technique in Harpsichord Technique at . This should be VERY enlightening for you! And while you're there, also read the Wanda Landowska Plays Mozart Sonatas article. These should provide much food for thought... DON'T SELL YOURSELF SHORT! I think you can develop your hand to master some of those bigger pieces. Go for it (carefully!)! Indeed I have! I once played a recital on an Estonia concert grand at the music school in Sombor, Serbia. I immediately understood why the Russians play the way they play! You need a tank just to push the key down! No wonder they are so strong! But I enjoyed the recital - Rachmaninoff 1st sonata (an unacknowledged masterwork) and I think I even broke a string! I was young enough to be proud of it at the time! Horowitz's piano had a very tightly regulated action, he was always in danger of double strikes. And his upweight was the same - it helped his facility and sensitivity... I like the challenge of dealing with potential double strikes - it hones your attention... Well Bob, thanks for the ramble. Let me know if that 'mash' exercise helps in the end - along with everything else in the film! Alan

Hey Alan, I'm finally back to you. One thing after another has kept me from doing what I want to do. I'm sure you have had similar things. Hopefully, I'll be back answering, right away. I see that there are 2 other forums. This one is for the book. Is it the place to also talk about technique, music questions, or should these things be addressed in one of the other forums? Your book came. Yay! It's great. I think I'm doing a lot of the things you talk about, even though I have been self-taught. When at university, I had money for either piano or voice lessons, but not both. Because the voice needed more work, I went that way. I'm glad you are taking time to help all of us. Are you going to be back in B.C. sometime--it'd be nice to attend a master class or the like. You are a fellow CT! It's a fun voice to sing with. Sure shakes up the women when you sing higher and with more power when they do. In my pro choir, I sing 2d alto. That choir will be in Rome in a week, with a concert at St. Peter's, then another concert with the mj. Greek Orthodox church of Moscow. Unfortunately, because of a doctor's mistake in February, I'm still on the mend from that and have had to sit the trip out. Rats. I would have had a little solo part too. It would have been fun. I might have even been able to hop over to Serbia and see you. That would have been great. I'll be ordering your DVD, next month. As I read your book, I find myself thinking, "Yes, that's right." Now, to keep practicing the technique and move myself to the next level, where I have the acceleration and power as well as control, whether playing ppp or fff, and all the time being certain to make the piano sing. I wonder if the Estonia you played was an old one (before Dr. Laul bought the company) or a new one? He has really changed the pianos from junk, to where they are now, a top-tier piano. The factory still likes to make them play heavy. It's like driving a tank. But I'm getting my piano regulated so it's right. I have ppp now and the challenge of really paying attention, to avoid double strikes. Surprisingly, I'm getting a handle on it, but it takes concentration and really feeling where you are in the piano. Did the piano you got (lucky you) make it to Serbia? I'm still interested in trying to track down the one you mentioned that might be out there, at least the keyboard, for my smaller hands. I'm not certain though, where to start. Even if you play with perfect technique, without an instrument that responds to it, you can only play as well as the piano will let you. And when you get a good one, you want to keep it and keep it at it's best. I bet I put about $1,000/yr into keeping this one going. And each time we do something it gets just a little better. With a down weight of 52g, that's in the ball-park of the Steinways, but the play weight is still too heavy. We've fixed that and now I can play the Schubert Op 90 #4, at tempo, with the arpeggios in the right hand being well under the melody that's in the left. Horowitz is "my teacher." The let-off, as set from the factory was so far back, that my piano could go from mf to ff, but no p or pp. Now, though I can play ppp to fff--just have to control those challenging double strikes, especially in the pp/ppp sections. If Horowitz could do it, we should be able to too, right. I'm looking forward to getting the DVD. The book and DVD aren't quite as good as a private lesson, but certainly better than almost anything that's out there. We should get together sometime and sing the duet for 2 CTs, "sound the trumpet" from "come, come ye sons of art." Please let me know if one of the other forums is a better place to ramble and ask questions that don't pertain directly to your book. I'll try to write more soon and tell you of some of the things that madame Bachauer told me of her work with Rachmaninoff. Bob

This thread has been a very good for me. When i read it i thought of the problems that i had recently with bench height. I think i may have found a solution for myself without having to raise the piano or raise the bench at all. I remember from my early days of piano training that my teachers in a way prohibited large movements. In a sense when someone's arm's -like mine- made large lateral movements or the elbow was moved a little or something else that was going on then i remember my teacher telling me to avoid large movements of my playing apparatus. Lately i started to analyze myself,trying to feel every part of me that is possible to be felt.I tried to sit down and observe muscular effort through out my arms,hand,feet,torso,cheeks,mouth,neck,elbow. Whenever there was something that could be felt or experianced as sensation i wanted to be there analyze it and feel it. I tried from the beggining.Here was my trick. I thought "fingers are moved from the forearm and the hand structure from the interroseus and lumbricals".I started to wiggle and use my fingers only. Then i wanted to incorporate my palm in to play.So while the fingers where going up and down,i used forearm muscles to move the palm forward(and of course the interroseus and lumbricals were used to form the hand structure!). Then i wanted to move my forearm too to assist the playing of notes.So active finger,active forearm for the palm too and i activated my upper arm to move the forearm. Then i wanted to move my my upper arm.So shoulder muscles helped.Then i wanted to move the shoulder forward,and used the muscles located in my chest. Then i wanted to move my whole torso so i had to use muscles in the belly area and diaphragm,my whole back i wanted to incorporate in the playing of a simple phrase! This opened up my whole imagination and technique. Every motion had to be re-felt.If i wanted to play fast octaves i would want to feel every part of my apparatus supporting in the right way.If a part of it didn't work tension was easily present.(and most notably the first place to feel pain was the forearm area,by grasping and activating the hand though this pain went away) I did the same for scale passages,for double notes,i carefully wanted to ensure that it was done correctly.And it was done VERY slowly at first. At first for a few seconds the movement was done way too much,but i had to feel it internally. Then the magic thing that happened is that the movements then were not visible to the eye,but were felt deep within me. So in a way now i can understand that it may seem as a low wrist position or a high wrist position but there is always something going on that is not visible to the eye. For the first time i felt that as long as the whole body is involved in playing then the forearm muscles work and just do what they are supposed to do.Nothing more and nothing else. For the first time in over 10 years i managed to play very fast glissando like scales, arpeges,double notes,etc with no strain at all.And then the other magic thing was that the more the speed was the less the visible movement,and the more the internal organization. I strongly believe that we should all strive to avoid the typical thing that sadly many pianists do:To raise the bench so high,and to see our elbows in the air.Maybe some lift of the bench is needed sometimes.But many people do it so much then you go to hear them and they can't play forte enough.It's ridiculus.They play fast,but no sonority! When i started this transformation other problems showed up though. Now a simple phrase from a mozart sonata or a complex bar of Bach's fugue,seems to have one million ways to be played. I feel like there are many ways for a phrase to be played but i don't like some of them and others seem out of style.Even a simple 4 note figure now is troubling me!How should the sonority of it be? And of course i was the one that was complaining in another thread that i cant find the optimal bench height to play.I think the next step for me would be to post a video in the dedicated thread and ask for evaluation. Thank you!

This answer is for Nikodr, Bob, I'll get to yours later! Niko, THANK YOU! You have just described in a wonderful way the inner workings of playing really well, and my hat's off to you for being so perceptive, being so dedicated, and being so insightful as to figure all that out, try it, and refine it until it really starts to work. BRAVO! I cannot add one word to your description, this is all great as it stands... And yes, you have opened up a Pandora's Box! This way of playing is incredibly rich and opens up thousands of ways of shaping each phrase. You are now discovering what piano playing can really be, when the aesthetic is generated from your own musical sensitivity do instead of all the things he or she can. So, enjoy the fruits of what you have discovererd, it's a long and rich journey! And we eagerly await your video post! All the best, AFF