Taubman ideas

All our understandings are incomplete. That's why we talk to each other. It's all a question of timing and of which part of your mechanism or action is most prominent at the moment. For instance today I am practicing a finger-pulling motion with such singlemindedness that any rotation which may or may not be happening is in the background of my awareness not the foreground. On another day it might be the opposite. One day the turn-out for 4-5 is more prominent in your awareness, another day the turn-in that consolidates the 5th metacarpal-phalangeal... In the end you'll know it's working because it SOUNDS well and you don't feel awkward doing it! AFF

I would just like to add something regarding rotation on every note. I have had lessons with a Taubman teacher. I too at first felt that it was absolutely impossible to rotate on every note. I particular found the idea of double rotation quite unbelievable at very fast tempos. I had to stop taking lessons but my continued practice it became clear that double rotation is absolutely at very fast speeds...yes...on every note. How is this possible? When rotation is combined with what Taubmanites call "shaping", "walking hand and arm"...um...basically everything else....rotation becomes smaller and smaller. All I can say is that eventually you will notice that your forearm eventually will rotate at very high speeds (even with multiple double rotations in a row). Point number TWO - Unfortunately there are so many complications in explaining this that I don't know if this will be understandable. However, relaxation plays a big big big part in all of this. As I said earlier...eventually you will NOTICE that your forearm will be doing the "correct" rotations at very high speeds. You will not be thinking "I've got to rotate on each and every note from the HINGE of the forearm". Eventually it feels like your WHOLE arm is shaking. Ok I need to go now but it is a very interesting approach. I agree that there are very very many misleading things about it. However, there is much to be said for it.

I would just like to add something regarding rotation on every note. I have had lessons with a Taubman teacher. I too at first felt that it was absolutely impossible to rotate on every note. I particular found the idea of double rotation quite unbelievable at very fast tempos. I had to stop taking lessons but my continued practice it became clear that double rotation is absolutely at very fast speeds...yes...on every note. How is this possible? When rotation is combined with what Taubmanites call "shaping", "walking hand and arm"...um...basically everything else....rotation becomes smaller and smaller. All I can say is that eventually you will notice that your forearm eventually will rotate at very high speeds (even with multiple double rotations in a row). Point number TWO - Unfortunately there are so many complications in explaining this that I don't know if this will be understandable. However, relaxation plays a big big big part in all of this. As I said earlier...eventually you will NOTICE that your forearm will be doing the "correct" rotations at very high speeds. You will not be thinking "I've got to rotate on each and every note from the HINGE of the forearm". Eventually it feels like your WHOLE arm is shaking. Ok I need to go now but it is a very interesting approach. I agree that there are very very many misleading things about it. However, there is much to be said for it. Are you quite sure it's not simply that your arm is responding freely and passively to the reaction forces that the piano sends back at you? How and why would this split second timing of contrary muscular actions (in which the faintest error would cause them to work against each other- locking up the forearm!) be adding to anything? If your arm is released enough to respond to the finger actions, it would make sense that you feel it shaking lightly. All finger actions cause forces to be reflected back through the rest of the arm. The thing that puzzles me most about the idea of double rotation being literal is how or why it would be of any benefit for the muscles to continue to actively instigate it. Do they ever answer this question, or is it simply shrouded in mystery?

I suppose if the arm were totally fluid and simultaneously totally skeletal there might be some atomic or molecular "rotation" - a sense of as each finger moves there is some sort of "counter-response" somewhere in the system. Maybe it's a microscopic version of what I say elsewhere, that we have to get away from the idea that a free lever needs a fixed fulcrum from which to move (c.f. Arnold Schultz's idea that the pelvis needs to be fixed to provide a stable base to the arm, hand and finger). Maybe if you are really relaxed and skeletal, there's a looseness in the arm that's a different feeling from its being a stable base. I still highly doubt that it's rotation but like we've noticed elsewhere, subjectivity is everything, and your perception of what's going on counts for something even when it's not objectively so! AFF

Hi I bought the videos out of curiosity. Must say I mostly agree with your (Alans!) review of the "method". None the less there is a lot of common wisdom which I think is pretty hard to digest properly for beginners. Rotation is as said above just a part of it unfortunately EG seems to be obsessed with it. I think the word rotation is somehow inadequate to me it's more a question of position like angeling the hand or finger towards the left or right before manupulating the keys. Which doesn't mean rotation is very prevalent in pianoplaying. EG very breifly talks about the importance of the individual fingers action and a good position it's obviously essential for the method but hardly noticeable. I'd say nothing from these videos works without a developped and functional arch without these elements the videos makes no sense at all. And the exercise of witholding one key while gently playing the next in a passage (recommended by Alan) does-if you ask me- give the same sensation of a rotational feeling.Without paying like 400$. After reading the blog from the experience with A in a lesson in Germany I'm more than ever convinced that if there is a single secret to pianoplaying-that's it. It also shows how difficult it is to transfere knowledge via text and even a DVD. I suggest you start to sell some DVD:s with important lessons with skilled pianists like A. To be able to see everything in "real life" would just be swell. Maybe with some cuts were you explain more in detail what's going on in the lesson. Eric

This is indeed amazing! What are they supposed to talk about??? Anyway, congratulations Eric on saving $400 - except you didn't! But could have... My "compare" post with the most detailed look at Taubman is no longer at aff.net but over at I have received some irate emails from Taubman devotees about this and I do aim to update it at some point... too many irons in the fire... AFF

I think that Mr. Fraser's critique of the Taubman method is very convincing. I like the fact that he was able to analyze actual playing samples of Taubmanites and point out the technical and musical flaws (e.g. percussive, labored tone quality), identifying what structural problem was causing those flaws (e.g. collapse of the arch). After all, the best test of a system of technique is whether it produces good results. If a method that ignores the significance of the hand's arch results in playing that is riddled with technical limitation, then there must be something wrong with that method. Nevertheless, I have observed traces of Taubman technique even in Horowitz's playing. In this video , when Horowit crosses the thumb under during passagework, you can see a slight rotation of the forearm. However, I'm not convinced that there is an individual rotation on each note. Does anyone else think that they see any trace of individual rotation on each note? If this invisible rotation actually does exist, then I would think that it would be visible in slow motion. It looks to me like Horowitz's arm moves to the side a bit in the direction of the notes he is playing (perhaps a continuous rotation for a group of notes, if not an individual rotation for each note). He is obviously using both the wrist and forearm for octaves, but do you see any trace of rotation toward the thumb side before each octave? Also, in this Horowitz video , at 1:03 he looks like he may be using a double rotation of the forearm for each note of the descending scale. I could be wrong, but the forearm appears to move right to left before each note. In this video , around 9:13, it looks like Horowitz is clearly rotating toward the thumb side to play the right hand chords. Also, since Horowitz never studied Taubman rotation, then how do you think that he incorporated it into his playing? Do you think that Horowitz's teachers at the Kiev Conservatory taught that rotation should be used to facilitate thumb under?

Hi lucio The problem with the method is it's dogmatism. And thats a shame because many elements are beneficial.They didn't invent the wheel they found elements in pianotechnique that would allow injured pianists to continue playing. I'm sure Dorothy Taubmann watched Horowitz Rubinstein and others very closely.Everybody uses rotation you can hardly restrict that movement.And be sure if Horowitz rotate towards the right thumb he does it only for musical reasons. I think that what you need to know about rotation is well covered in Alans DVD. Best regards Eric

How would rotation toward the thumb serve a musical purpose? I assumed that the purpose of rotation was merely to provide optimal physical efficiency.

Rotation with the right thumb will accentuate that key in a chord and thus create a thicker sound.The reverse if you rotate towards your pinky.