Shoulder Tension Again

I have recently read the first post from Andrew's blog - pianoscience or whatever- and found many interesting philosophies that resemble very much Alan's way of seeing the mechanics of the arm in piano tehnique. Anyway I will come on this subject later after I will read a consistent number of posts from Andrew's blog. The problem I'm dealing with at the moment is again shoulder tension. The only difference is that the muscle contractions are not accompanied by a wrist lock and an elbow-generated pushing motion. The fingers remained active as Alan taught me and progress has been made. But somehow I feel I got back to the point I was last year before having lessons with Alan. I would describe the situation as Andrew did when he said that looking good on the outside doesn't mean it functions good on the inside. My so called regress is more frustrating as about a month ago I managed to obtain that "rope feeling" in the arms. I just thought the elbow was flexed trying to hold its own weight in a 90 degree position. Then I just loosened the elbow as like I wanted to let my forearm fall free and there it was. I felt I could play anything at the piano so relaxed I was. It was quite a tickling sensation in the ribs region because I was not used to that extreme relaxation state. Unfortunately this didn't last. Now especially my right shoulder goes crazy even at non-musical activities like writing, driving or typing. It keeps moving back and forth, in and out, constantly changing its mind and not finding its place. The muscle stripe between my neck and my right shoulder as well as the muscles in the vicinity of the shoulder blade are quite strained. What to do? I reached Grade 4 at least from the technical point of view however if the problem can't be solved I won't be able to play with ease and feel.

My so called regress is more frustrating as about a month ago I managed to obtain that "rope feeling" in the arms. I just thought the elbow was flexed trying to hold its own weight in a 90 degree position. Then I just loosened the elbow as like I wanted to let my forearm fall free and there it was. I felt I could play anything at the piano so relaxed I was. It was quite a tickling sensation in the ribs region because I was not used to that extreme relaxation state. Unfortunately this didn't last. Now especially my right shoulder goes crazy even at non-musical activities like writing, driving or typing. It keeps moving back and forth, in and out, constantly changing its mind and not finding its place. The muscle stripe between my neck and my right shoulder as well as the muscles in the vicinity of the shoulder blade are quite strained. What to do? I reached Grade 4 at least from the technical point of view however if the problem can't be solved I won't be able to play with ease and feel. There's an exercise in a post on on the arms for feeling an "elbow out" action- but then minimising to the point where movement barely occurs but where you can use this to support and lighten the arm without locking the shoulder up. I think this might be of help. If you make it about a negligible outward drift- instead of about up or down, it gives far more sensitivity to the shoulder's role develops the means to avoid fixation. It's a way of supporting without feeling like the shoulder is "held" in a position. Also, I discovered not long ago that you can get many free Feldenkrais podcasts- just search on itunes, if you have it. These have been really useful. I haven't actually done all that many yet (and want to do a lot more)- but I think I've picked up a lot of benefit from what I've done. Once you've found the mind-set of self observation, I think it naturally carries across into your general everyday perceptions- and you carry on learning to some degree, almost automatically. Not that I'm doubting that doing many exercises will have vastly more benefits to offer, but I think that even doing a few triggers something in the brain that gets the ball rolling outside of them. What I've discovered recently is that my right shoulder has almost permanently been stuck forwards and inwards. I noticed this to some extent a while ago, but am only now realising quite how bad the habit was. Pretty much everything I do was affected by this. Doing weights in the gym has become far more productive of late. A lot of this is due to conscious observations that I am certain were inspired by some of the feldenkrais exercises. I'm far more inclined to notice when the shoulder grinds in too close and my quality of movement has greatly improved as a result. Almost without fail, I feel freer after doing weights rather than strained. It seems to put my joints back where they should be. My shoulder is getting pushed back and around the outside- which has made a big difference to my playing. One thing I've realised is that it's almost always easiest to think of the shoulder being supported against gravity with an outward action. When I carry shopping bags, I formerly had a tendency to let my shoulder slump inwards and collapse into my torseo, or to force it upwards into a locked position. Rather than hold the shopping - I now let the shoulder get pulled down and then feel I'm easing it out to the side- until in balance with gravity. I think this is actually a very good exercise to help develop the supporting muscles for the arm that operate in playing. If you use these, rather than fixate you can balance with minimum effort.

Ok. Your posts managed to clarify some things but at the same time made me even dizier when it comes to forces that act on the so-called pianist's arm. That action-reaction theory is very clear for me but I can't understand where to aim at when trying to perceive the reaction force? Action means, from what Alan has taught me, a backward finger pulling. Reaction means...? The forward motion felt in the elbow and shoulder joint? I think this is the most difficult part one experiences when doing these kind of perception drills. It is difficult to take the reaction into consideration because you don't create it directly. The reaction is being created when you play. The exercise with the pencil was also helpful. I think that one year ago when I was almost an absolute beginner I tried to play similar to your first example - moving the whole pencil down. I think that resembles a hand without finger action. Now my playing resembles your second example when you lower the end (actually the tip) of the pencil. I got bored at some moment but I read the whole second post because I realised that there are many mechanical truths in your text. I feel them but I don't know how on earth will I be able to correct them. I don't want to complicate things even more because if I explain my situation using your way of seeing things I think it will become Chineese. Here it goes: My fingers are active. The wrist breathes. I feel weight behind the wrist but I know that it is not the appropriate kind of weight. I even assume that this "weight" I feel when I'm playing is sometimes the muscular tension you mentioned when you talked about "seeking gravity" instead of letting gravity act. Due to this the fingers sometimes slip off the keys as there is not enough arm weight to hold them stable. I don't know if this is a matter of practice or I should just try to sharp my senses for the moment. I will come back with a reply after I return home at my Yamaha P-85. Now I'm at my parents and I only have an M-Audio 88 Midi Controller so it's noway near a genuine piano-key feel. Things improved anyway because I tried playing a little etude for staccato 8th notes and now the arm really jumps. It is a clear sign that the weight of the arm is now more "useful" than last year. At the same time I think that the poor muscular usage is caused by some important tehnique etudes I must have skipped. Otherwise I can't explain myself why some Grade 3 or Grade 4 pieces seem to me easy while an etude for staccato from Bastien's primel level Technic Book causes me major problems.

Cheers for the feedback. I'll go through a few points: "That action-reaction theory is very clear for me but I can't understand where to aim at when trying to perceive the reaction force? Action means, from what Alan has taught me, a backward finger pulling. Reaction means...? The forward motion felt in the elbow and shoulder joint? I think this is the most difficult part one experiences when doing these kind of perception drills. It is difficult to take the reaction into consideration because you don't create it directly. The reaction is being created when you play." Basically, the meaning of "action" is more specific in physics. Alan refers to actions in the general sense of activities. The action in physics is the specific force and direction. Strictly speaking, the inside of the finger is a whole string of actions and reaction- as muscles and tendons etc. pull on bones that drag others in a whole chain. Movement of the finger is a reaction itself- that causes an action upon the key. Anyway, rather than concern ourselves with every component, however, we are probably better off looking mianly at the resultant whole that acts upon the key and the reaction that occurs. The "reaction" is often odd, because strictly speaking it's the follow-up- yet it's often easier to judge from the reaction than the action. For example, in the walking thing mentioned- where thinking of the downward action tends to create heaviness but feeling the upward reaction lightens things. I'd think the same way when doing a knuckle action. It's often good to judge from the reaction that pulls the knuckle higher- rather than the action that pushes the key down. Two ways of thinking give a real point of focus and can have surprisingly different results- considering that reaction is caused directly by the action. It's a good way of showing up faults in the perception, before trying to get the two ways of thinking to produce something similar. If our perceptions are accurate, there should be no difference. Regarding the arm however, I don't think you should have any expectations about how it should respond to reactions to the hand's action. I think the whole point about how the arm operates as your shock absorber is that it MUST be passive. You can't be to make the arm respond to reactions in a specific way. You can only make it loose and movable enough to LET it be affected. "The exercise with the pencil was also helpful. I think that one year ago when I was almost an absolute beginner I tried to play similar to your first example - moving the whole pencil down. I think that resembles a hand without finger action. Now my playing resembles your second example when you lower the end (actually the tip) of the pencil." To clarify in this one, the direction of action/reaction keeps changing. I may make a slight addition to that post at some point. I believe the action should be approximately 90 degrees to the end of the pencil- so, as it's levered up the direction is constantly changing. The reaction here is what pulls you forwards and up, around the point of contact. Also, I'll be involving another type of movement that is a little simpler than this one. Both have many uses and I still firmly believe in the style of movement described with the pencil. However, I'm also using a great deal more of one where the action is more forwards than backwards now- following some lessons with Alan. "My fingers are active. The wrist breathes. I feel weight behind the wrist but I know that it is not the appropriate kind of weight. I even assume that this "weight" I feel when I'm playing is sometimes the muscular tension you mentioned when you talked about "seeking gravity" instead of letting gravity act. Due to this the fingers sometimes slip off the keys as there is not enough arm weight to hold them stable. I don't know if this is a matter of practice or I should just try to sharp my senses for the moment." It sounds like you're thinking too much from the wrong end. Everything needs to move around the fingertip. Try thinking from that end and working backwards. That's the only point that doesn't move- relative to the key. You may not necessarily need more "weight" in the sense that you would want to feel it pressing down hard through the key. Remember that release of weight primarily makes the arm hang back. If it creates a big downforce directly, it's probably muscular pressure, not weight. It's more about observation of what weight does upon release- rather than the sense of trying to make weight act down through the hand. Also, try making the arm feel ultra light sometimes and just observe what it's like to move the finger and whole arm around a stationary fingertip. These can be practised on a tabletop very usefully. It's basically about getting the whole arm to respond around the finger's point of contact- rather than the fight the reaction force. Also, does the finger bend when you slip? Maybe the action is coming too much from two lesser joints rather than the knuckle? The type of action where these straighten slightly may be useful to you. When the knuckles are ultra-high, it's sometimes hard not to slip with a pure "pull". Maybe a trace of straightening is the missing link? Hopefully I'll be uploading a number of videos of direct exercises for the hand before too long. Although quite a few of my posts have been about generic guiding principles, the next few will be getting straight into the heart of applying these principles to very specific movements in the hand. I have quite a few exercises planned out that are different to Alan's in specifics and which will be described in somewhat different ways- but with much the same goals in mind.

When you go from very tense to relaxed you start to use new minor undevelopped muscles/tendons/nerves and this may cause some pain. I think that's very common for us westerners . It probably takes some time to get it right and I beleive it's good to diminish practise-time considerably to avoid coming back to old habits. Just a personal amateurish opinion. One way to keep that hanging chain-feeling is to think that biceps/triceps not allowed at all for a starter. Then you'll find out that the weight of the hand/arm is so big that you really need a potent arch/strong fingers to avoid complete collapse. In a sense all the pressure is on your fingers. You can play like that without using biceps/triceps att all even staccatto only using muscles in the forearm and hand. and you might have to change position (leaning forward/backward) in order to avoid the loud noice you just created almost by doing nothing. This has nothing to do with traditional armweight-thinking.

"One way to keep that hanging chain-feeling is to think that biceps/triceps not allowed at all for a starter. Then you'll find out that the weight of the hand/arm is so big that you really need a potent arch/strong fingers to avoid complete collapse. In a sense all the pressure is on your fingers." I don't think I could agree with this. Maybe it would have felt more that way before I started developing my hand? However, when I truly relax my arm what surprises me is how much less the downward pressure is than what many would have people believe. I think it's when people expect it to be a big pressure, that they unconsciously use muscles to make it a big pressure. When you let go of as many muscles as possible, the hand is mainly pulled backwards. It's only when you activate certain ones (eg. by fixing the wrist in a solid straight line, or even by pressing with certain muscles) that it creates a big pressure. Full release certainly makes for more pressure than I normally use, but I do tend to think truly big pressures through the hand are more down to excessively selective release- rather than down to actually releasing the arm. I think it's important to do this particular experiment with no prior expectations and to simply observe what intent at full release of the arm causes. I think the limp slack-handed approach is the best way to start this- as even to grip slightly often introduces subconscious pressures. If even the hand is passive, it gives the clearest feeling of how much force is really provided by simply resting the arm.

Hmm. My fingertip slides on the key. I guess that is not quite correct. How can I prevent the fingertip from sliding and make it operate without changing the position where it makes contact with the surface of the key (I think this was what you meant)? And regarding the pressure perceived as arm weight I must tell you I realised what I was doing, I am aware of it, I can control it, however I can't remove it 100%. It sometimes gets back and hinders me. It's something like "I'm relaxed and I can play easily. I'm even so relaxed that my hand doesn't have stability when playing fast. Yet I feel a push from the elbow." Yes. Unfortunately it bends from the other 2 joints. I saw it when practicing on a table top. I actually felt it while playing but didn't take notice of it until actually seeing how the finger worked. For this particular problem I can't think of a solution.

Yes. Unfortunately it bends from the other 2 joints. I saw it when practicing on a table top. I actually felt it while playing but didn't take notice of it until actually seeing how the finger worked. For this particular problem I can't think of a solution. Perhaps the 'one hand clapping' and fingertapping exercises might provide a solution, since they are designed to move the finger from the metacarpal-phalangeal joint.

"Hmm. My fingertip slides on the key. I guess that is not quite correct. How can I prevent the fingertip from sliding and make it operate without changing the position where it makes contact with the surface of the key (I think this was what you meant)?" Basically, I'd spend a lot of time doing this on a tabletop. Connect the fingertip in one spot and move around it. Sometimes move the arm a little more actively. At other times, try to feel the arm motion is a passive response to the lever action from the knuckle. There are all kinds of different ways of distributing the actions. Obviously, if you only do the arm motion, by the time you come to playing a key it won't even go down! However, it's useful to experiment with a wealth of different ways. The better you get at it, the more you can ensure the action comes from the finger rather than the arm. Eventually the arm simply follows the finger pull (don't use full dead weight on this one though- take some support at the shoulder!) "I'm relaxed and I can play easily. I'm even so relaxed that my hand doesn't have stability when playing fast. Yet I feel a push from the elbow." Hand and arm are two very different things though. If the hand is becoming flimsy, it might actually be what is causing the need to hold the arm stiffly and compensatory pushing. The hand needs to stay well connected, while the arm releases. A released arm should inspire more stability at the hand- not less!!! It sounds like your hand's too relaxed but your arm is not releasing enough. If the hand is not well connected, the arm needs to work harder merely to stop it sliding off the piano. When the hand is well connected, the arm can release into a hanging chain- which ought to make it more stable. "Yes. Unfortunately it bends from the other 2 joints. I saw it when practicing on a table top. I actually felt it while playing but didn't take notice of it until actually seeing how the finger worked. For this particular problem I can't think of a solution." I think the slight straightening action in these joints could be what you're missing. I only recently discovered the limits of always using a pure "pull" very recently. I was convinced that my knuckles were activating well, but Alan said I was pulling back way too much with the next joints rather than properly engaging the knuckle. At first I thought "How can that be- after all the exercises I've done pulling from the knuckle?" I've come to realise that it was because I was starting curled up and my actions were almost entirely about coming in further still. It wasn't incapability of moving from the knuckle, but that I was often getting into a position that is not conducive to a knuckle pull- without those joints taking over. The actions he showed me often involved straightening those out during the depression. It's given me way more options than only pulling inwards from each joint. I think the problem with the pure inward pull is that if you've already curled up a fair bit, it's very hard to use the knuckle properly. It's easiest to either start with a fairly (or sometimes entirely) flat finger, or to slightly straighten the last two joints as you pull from the knuckle. That should eliminate excess movement or slipping in those joints. I have felt much more stable since I've given myself both options. In many cases, I think it's already coming down to instincts as to which action I'm using at a given time. It's as if my hand knows when it's curled up too far to carry on with pure inward pulls and makes it own adaptations.

My personal feeling is that when Andrew started with his arm weight stuff, you got distracted from the basically healthy, "improve the one huge missing element" tack you and I had been on, and you've never really gotten back. We worked on activating your fingers which were alarmingly dormant, and I knew if you just kept at it after our week together, you would see steady improvement. Now of course, you can't just do one thing dogmatically for ever. But you can develop variants on that one thing that keep cultivating and improving that missing part. Only when it was fully in place might we then have allowed ourselves the luxury of considering arm weight. Nothing of what Andrew says is wrong: but pedagogy is about applying the right piece of knowledge at the right time. His information deflected you from the path we had set up and got you going around in circles again. Sorry Andrew, but I have to call 'em as I see 'em. All best and good luck, AFF