Scale fingerings made easy

I would actually do the opposite! my Liszt Ballade fingering: B minor passage: 5214321321 for some reason I don't keep the fourth finger in the equivalent B flat minor passage: 5213213212. I think because I want to play the first downbeat note with my 2nd finger in both instances. These fingerings help me get the super-evenness that makes it an artistic rumble... Then in the Chopin Scherzo I DO use 313131 etc because it's a rhythmic scale and I can better control the pulse that way than with the 4321 stuff. Maybe I should consider changing this last... AFF

I would actually do the opposite! my Liszt Ballade fingering: B minor passage: 5214321321 for some reason I don't keep the fourth finger in the equivalent B flat minor passage: 5213213212. I think because I want to play the first downbeat note with my 2nd finger in both instances. These fingerings help me get the super-evenness that makes it an artistic rumble... Well, the 4321 fingering certainly can't hurt in the Ballade. Whatever works. In this case, I suppose the beauty if the 3131 fingering is that your thumbs are always playing the accents together. Speaking of this passage, Garrick Ohlsson has quite the trick he uses for it. Not true to the score, but I think true to the character of the piece. ~ Believe me. I've learned them with 4th finger on the black key. I can do it. But most good pianists are not in the business of making things more difficult for themselves. They key is to make them ? NO. ~ Yes, when it's a , do it. By why make things harder on yourself unnecessarily? Just for the sport of it? Sounds a bit sadistic to me... Sorry. Moreover, in B minor, having your second finger already playing in the black key area places the A-sharp comfortably in your hand. Which means that the technique used is not exactly the same as the A-minor and E-minor equivalents. (Honestly, B minor is not that hard...) Anyway, finger your scales how you want. But I hold that . The only exception is when the easier option is not the most musical option (For example, being a wuss and playing the opening octaves of Beethoven op. 111 with both hands. EVERYONE can tell, and it doesn't sound good.)

Moreover, in B minor, having your second finger already playing in the black key area places the A-sharp comfortably in your hand. Which means that the technique used is not exactly the same as the A-minor and E-minor equivalents. (Honestly, B minor is not that hard...) Anyway, finger your scales how you want. Does it really make such a big difference? I don't personally feel any significant difference between the difficulty between 3 and 4 in B minor and A minor. If anything, I find the 2nd finger on black note to be a hindrance. B minor is not exactly a hugely difficult scale, but I feel that the 2nd finger on the black adds key an extra difficult of alignment (by making it tricky to slip 3 between the black keys), rather than that it alleviates any difficulty between 3 and 4. It remains the case that if you avoid it in A minor and E minor, you still need to deal with the issue it in B minor. Is there a way of finding what makes B minor more workable for you, and using that to make A minor and E minor easier with the regular fingering- despite the missing black key? I'm not convinced that it really hinges on the extra black key. Personally, I'd actually go as far as to say that I rather prefer to have my fourth on a black key than the erd. It feels rather natural to open out the hand into this big spacious position- and give extra time to physically prepare the black key. Anyway, it's certainly not that I'm arguing against whether it's an acceptable fingering to bring in. I just don't personally any significant problem in the standard fingering. But I hold that I couldn't agree here. The greatest pianists learn from implications of the notated fingering and can reflect that, whatever fingering they take. In this case, I'd say that I've heard many pianists make a hideously snatched sound by insisting on using one hand and losing control because of it. I've also heard completely blandness with two hands, but a good pianist ought to be able to use two hands to simulate the positives of the difficulty of using one handed, without the negatives of the percussive sound that often results from attempting one. If Horowitz could use two hands to play the first statement of the melody in the stars and stripes as beautifully and seamlessly as if it were a profound vocal line, I don't see any reason why a pianist could not also achieve drama with two hands. I think the best pianists understand the musical implications of a notation, but care little as to what means they use to evoke that implication.

I couldn't agree here. The greatest pianists learn from implications of the notated fingering and can reflect that, whatever fingering they take. In this case, I'd say that I've heard many pianists make a hideously snatched sound by insisting on using one hand and losing control because of it. I've also heard completely blandness with two hands, but a good pianist ought to be able to use two hands to simulate the positives of the difficulty of using one handed, without the negatives of the percussive sound that often results from attempting one. If Horowitz could use two hands to play the first statement of the melody in the stars and stripes as beautifully and seamlessly as if it were a profound vocal line, I don't see any reason why a pianist could not also achieve drama with two hands. I think the best pianists understand the musical implications of a notation, but care little as to what means they use to evoke that implication. Yes, we're talking about music here. You do whatever you can to make things manage to get the right sound out of redistributing, more power to you! DO IT!

Yes, we're talking about music here. You do whatever you can to make things It's not really the accuracy issue for me. With one hand, it often sounds like a wildly flamboyant explosion of virtuosity (a little like some of the descending l.h. motifs in Scriabin's op. 8 no. 12). However, it's so exposed that this can destroy the grandeur of the sound, unless meticulously controlled. Using two hands makes it much easier to get a big resonant sound that carries- not just an explosive crash that has a percussive edge.

Hello, that's Horowitz's shtick! Garrick got it from the old man... AFF

Hello, that's Horowitz's shtick! Garrick got it from the old man... AFF Apparently Horowitz nicked it himself from Liszt- although, I forget the source.

As for the rest of these recent posts, we are getting into some interesting illusions here, one that we should be looking for easier fingerings to avoid weird stretches and on the other hand we should be trying to dream up awkward fingerings to exercise our hands in some way. If I need to change my fingering to avoid playing an F natural - G sharp interval with my 3rd and 4th fingers, then I'm technically incompetent. Surely the goal is to develop a plastic enough hand that this small stretch is not a problem. In fact, try this: play in the right hand ascending C-F-Bflat-Eflat-Bflat with the fingering 1-2-3-4-5 and return down. Using rotation you should be able to do physical legato all the way Then transpose this pattern up half-step by half-step, continuing to use that fingering. Do this well and your little augmented 2nd in A minor or E minor won't be such a big problem for you. As for the opening of Op. 111, Andrew you'll recall a lesson I gave you on the first note of the Schubert C minor Impromptu? We did almost a whole lesson on getting that one octave to sound with the right , not just the right resonant, "healthy" sound. Technique was at the service of musical expression. I actually wrote that lesson down but you'll have to wait for my next book to come out before you can read it... Pianists who hack their one-handed way through the opening of Op. 111 aren't even on the playing field. Those who use two hands aren't much closer. Getting the desired quality of musical expression into those notes requires so much more than mere physical dexterity that I sometimes wonder why we spend so much time on the physical here. But actually I know. MY focus on the physical is just a stepping stone to get me THERE, where I can use my hands to create the desired emotional experience in sound. It's YOU guys that get stuck in the mechanics of it. My ideal would be some day to be able to lay this forum to rest because we don't need it any more - or rather to make another forum that talks about the greater artistic challenge. AFF

Technically incompetent? Or ? Having things sound right is one's end goal. I don't find that it pays to attach myself to one fingering just because it displays a technical strength that the other fingering doesn't require. We base scale fingerings on the concept that it's considerably less awkward to play the thumb on a black note. Let's finger all our scales the same way, 123 1234 starting on tonic. Thumbs on blacks everywhere, and lots of awkward crossovers. After all, we'd be more technically competent if we did so. (This of course is pure sarcasm). My point being, if there is nothing 'technically incompetent' about avoiding use of the thumb on blacks. There is nothing incompetent about avoiding an undesired stretch. Sure, we all have the technique (I would hope anyway) to play all of these these challenges when the time comes, but lets not make challenges where they don't exist. ~ Moreover, there is a lot of confusion about the awkwardness of that interval. It's not the interval itself (augmented second between 3rd and 4th). It's where it comes in the scale. In order to pull is off well, one has to play the entire 4-finger hand position in the black key area (but all the notes leading to G# are . Now, having just gone to the piano and playing the scale this way, I admit, it's totally doable, and yes at a fast tempo (I was playing at 132bpm). I can do it either way. So... give me a break here. This is quite simply a matter of 'technical incompetence'. When it comes to fingering there are many alternatives. I do not find this fingering to be the best alternative. No matter how comfortable I am able to get it, no matter how well I can play it, I still think it is an unworthy alternative to the other fingering I use. ~ The exercise Alan presented is a challenge. But all the awkward stretches are on black keys - making it more convenient. Change it up a bit: C-F-Bb--Bb. ~ There are many pianists who consider fingering to be the key to piano technique. That's right. Fingering. (Obviously these pianists have a lot of other things they must be doing right, but still...). So I'll leave you with a quote: . -Alicia de Larrocha

"Moreover, there is a lot of confusion about the awkwardness of that interval. It's not the interval itself (augmented second between 3rd and 4th). It's where it comes in the scale. In order to pull is off well, one has to play the entire 4-finger hand position in the black key area (but all the notes leading to G# are ." I think the difference between this and thumbs on black keys is that you have to do comparable difficulties all over the place. If you don't deal with it here, there are plenty of other places where you'll have an equivalent and far worse- with no way of getting out of it. While plenty of pianists do indeed practise C major fingering for all scales, it's not the most common thing in the world. If you don't deal with the issue here, there are many other places where comparable difficulties will arise. I really can't follow on the sharp helping in B minor, personally. I find that the black note makes it way harder to get the 3rd finger in place. It' takes a lot more care to prepare the position than to flick the fingers out onto white keys. I find A minor overwhelmingly easier for this reason. My fingers flick out easily and then all they have to do is move. In B minor, I have to take much greater care, in order to prepare every finger of the position in the first instant. But once the fingers are lined up the 3 and 4 issue isn't different between them. I think Busoni spoke of practising the more difficult fingerings, but doing the easy ones in performance. I think that's the issue here- whether you're avoiding something due to problems that ought to be dealt with, or whether it's just a matter of slight preference.