Technique and methods
39 posts
Started 18 Jan 2017
A
Alanfraserpiano
Do you know the 123451234512345 fingerings for the 2-octave scales in Spanish Rhapsody? These are sharp key scales such as D major and E major. Liszt's original fingering.
Something is beginning to emerge here: we are devising fingerings based on minimizing thumb-under or over-thumb movements because of their awkwardness, but it seems in a really well-developed technique, the thumb-under or over-thumb is no longer awkward, so where and when you use it becomes almost irrelevant. The scale sounds even, even over the 'junction points,' because your thumb has learned how to work so well that there's no bump.
So you end up putting in more 1234 or 12345 fingerings just because it does allow you to go faster!
AFF
A
A pianist
Not the constant groups of all 5 fingers? I've considered one approach that involves never doing less than a group of three fingers in order to cut down on thumbs- although it's a little confusing due to repeating only every two octaves. I'd only ever use it for a hands separate scale. For the right hand descending from B flat (or left hand ascending from F sharp) it would be
4321 321 4321 321 4321 321 321 before repeating itself. I can't imagine anything that could possibly go quicker except for five finger groupings.
Nice, I've just tried that and it does feel very comfortable. Perhaps it's because it's the same fingering as a 3 octave diatonic scale, plus 3 more notes on the end? I found it very easy to cover 4 octaves with this fingering, more so than just using 1, 2 and 3 as I was taught to.
A
A pianist
Something is beginning to emerge here: we are devising fingerings based on minimizing thumb-under or over-thumb movements because of their awkwardness, but it seems in a really well-developed technique, the thumb-under or over-thumb is no longer awkward, so where and when you use it becomes almost irrelevant. The scale sounds even, even over the 'junction points,' because your thumb has learned how to work so well that there's no bump.
Yeah, I was a little confused at first, but I think I see what you mean. There's an almost contradictory irony in that the better the thumb works, the less of a problem it is to use it more frequently. However, at the same time it also frees up the possibility of controlling the transition between difficult five finger groups for potentially greater ease still. Ironically, those with the worst thumbs are the most dependent upon having to involve fingerings that use their thumb over and over again.
A
Alanfraserpiano
Yup, just one of life's many little ironies...
AFF
A
A pianist
Anyone else find A-minor harmonic and E-minor harmonic awkward (in the right hand)? Yep, it's (mostly) due to that nasty augmented second between your 3rd and 4th fingers. Since the topic is practical scale fingering, here is the non-traditional and fingering for A-minor and E-minor harmonic (starting from tonic):
1234 123 1234 123...
Why does everyone teach it 123 1234? I'll never understand....
~
Also, I've seen a lot of talk about chromatic scales. You guys mentioned the standard 2-octave pattern (starting from d): 123 1234 123 1234 123 1234 123, repeat.
The more traditional 13 123 13 13 123 13 123 13 13 123, etc. is really not a bad fingering for chromatics. If you can do a nice trill between 1 and 3, there's no reason why you couldn't play a fast chromatic scale this way.
A
Alanfraserpiano
Yes but you'll never get the blistering speed you can get with the other fingerings. It's just mechanics...
AFF
A
A pianist
No, not the fingering to use for blistering speed, especially in long extended chromatic scales (e.g. coda of Chopin's B minor Scherzo). But I find that in certain contexts, even in fast playing, the 13 13 123 pattern works well. I think I used it, for example, in the rumbling bass of the Liszt B minor Ballade.
A
A pianist
fingering for A-minor and E-minor harmonic (starting from tonic):
1234 123 1234 123...
Why does everyone teach it 123 1234? I'll never understand....
Is this really the kind of difficulty we want to duck out of? You have to deal with it in B minor, regardless. So isn't it better to get some practise for it in A minor and E minor too? I personally think this is the type of difficulty that should be tackled head-on. Also, I'm not sure if it's purely habit and what I'm used to, but somehow I'd swear that my hand covers the black note more easily as part of a bigger position.
A
A pianist
I had always used the standard fingering myself, but now I'm thinking about it, I really think the larger groups are easier. I always had a problem subduing the notes of that chromatic scale. Personally, I find they most typically tend too over-rumble and sound rather notey, in very many performances. With a lot of thumbs flying around, it was very hard to subdue the sound.
In the B minor, 4 on the C sharp and then 3 on the easy sharp works extremely well. In the B flat minor I tried 3 on the B flat , 4 on the D flat and then 3 on the F. Admittedly, it does feel a bit weird to be left with a 2 and 3 for the upper notes, but perhaps there's another way of doing larger groups?
A
A pianist
Anyone else find A-minor harmonic and E-minor harmonic awkward (in the right hand)? Yep, it's (mostly) due to that nasty augmented second between your 3rd and 4th fingers.
I'd treat it as an opportunity to learn rather than avoiding it. If it feels awkward, then I'd find out why. Personally, even with my small hands I don't need to 'stretch' to reach the notes - the difference between the 'at rest' position and the slight abduction between finger 3 and 4 is minimal.
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