Octaves Problem Please Help

Hi again- Playing fast octaves, i use the thumb and fifth finger on the white keys and the thumb and fourth finger on the black keys,and using thumb orientation movement-meaning taking the hand to abduction.The problem is that no matter how hard I am trying getting rid of any excess tension ,I feel pain in the upper side of the forearm (where the extensors are). I dont know if that pain suppose to be there or I am doing something wrong. I am really cautious about this so I pay attention very carefully making sure the shoulder is relaxed and i am not over using the muscles ,but despite all of that I still feel pain. Is that pain normal,will it go away the more i do the movement and strengthening the muscle,or there should be no pain at all. Please help Thanks

Try lifting the middle three fingers as you play the octave. Does this make the pain worse or relieve it? When you raise the fingers, the extensors are called to do an ACTIVE movement. When the arch is even a little collapsed, the extensors are called to do an anti-collapsing contraction which causes the pain. Transforming their work into a pro-active movement should solve the problem. AFF

Tried to lift the fingers ,still the pain exists and i thoink it is wrose-it starts from the wrist and continues to the back of the forearm at the extensors side...any ideas why is it painful? - just to understand the logic behind it:if the extensors try to do the work of anti-collapse the the arch it contracts them,that i understand,but isnt it the same as stretching them out? that motion of contraction is the same in both situations,no? what is the difference? Thanks

The motion is the same; the FUNCTION is radically different. If it hurts more, you have to just lay off it for awhile, something has been traumatized in there and needs to recover. Do extremely gentle, pianissimo, non-stretching movements for now. Later on, when things have healed, investigate things in the context I am suggesting. AFF

Tried to lift the fingers ,still the pain exists and i thoink it is wrose-it starts from the wrist and continues to the back of the forearm at the extensors side...any ideas why is it painful? - just to understand the logic behind it:if the extensors try to do the work of anti-collapse the the arch it contracts them,that i understand,but isnt it the same as stretching them out? that motion of contraction is the same in both situations,no? what is the difference? Thanks I've been finishing writing up some exercises very similar to what Alan suggests and I think the link to the arm is very important. When I raise my middle fingers, my arm lightens to go with them. The wrist floats up by a few millimetres at the same time. The extensors don't work hard at all, as far from dragging a heavy arm they basically remind the arm to stop weighing down and drift slightly up with them. If the extensors are working hard to prevent weight or arm pressure from collapsing the hand, they need to work with extreme force to resist all that. The idea isn't to use your extensors to fight back against the arm, but rather to notice how they can inspire the arm to stop digging in and thus overworking them. I'd take care if you're having pain, but does it become less effort if you waggle the fingers? If you're working hard against unnecessary resistance, it's possible that gently patting the fingers up and down will actually stop the working so hard. You have to be absolutely sure you open the arch though. If the arch isn't open, it will be very strenuous for the extensors.

Also, compare limbo dancing or squatting to standing up. There's simple mechanics behind why it's less work to open out than to try to stay stable in a sunk position, that hasn't quite fallen down all the way.

Yes it does make sense! Thank you! But the problem with the octaves did raise a question-do the extensors actually work in piano playing-(of course they are-they lift the fingers),so why feeling pain on their side of the forearm is no good?

You hurt the extensors by using them inappropriately. Now they are still injured so they may hurt even if you use them appropriately. Give them a rest. When they heal, if you use them well, there should be no pain. AFF

Yes it does make sense! Thank you! But the problem with the octaves did raise a question-do the extensors actually work in piano playing-(of course they are-they lift the fingers),so why feeling pain on their side of the forearm is no good? I tried an experiment on these lines with a drooped arch and an open one. It's interesting as I could feel the permanent tension on my forearm when fighting against the last bit of collapse into a cluster. After opening the hand, the release was very clear. Also when waggling from a drooped position, there was still zero release. From the arch, I could feel the fluctuation between on and off while waggling. There was a constant flicker rather than ongoing stiffness. It's a really great issue raised here. I'd never monitored those muscles before.

Tried to do many versions of octaves and lifting the middle fingers up. Still not sure -lifting the fingers is a necessity but there is a limit the degree of lifting them up? Is there such a thing as lifting them up too much and pain will occure? I also saw all of the octave's videos on the website and in some of them the fingers seem to be more lengthened than lifted upwards,is that an illusion? Thank you!