Discovering "relax" playing, what is your advice..

Hi Salante and Eric. I've seen a few clips of Taubmann/Golansky on YouTube. I remember finding that one clip really helped me a few years back now. It was the repeating chords where your wrist/forearm goes up on each repetition then falls back down to form another pulse. I'm not sure what you mean by "virtuosity in a box" could you explain further? Salante I've always thought when you are learning a new technique pick the etude that best suits this and then incorporate it in to the piece. That way I have a kind of gauge of what I am trying to achieve and there's also a musical focus which helps you achieve what you are doing. I find when the mind is focused on trying to achieve the musical goal whilst being aware of the hand/wrist/arm choreography then I achieve the results quicker. Plus you get to learn repetoire! I was wondering what you are doing at the moment - are you learning with pieces or the technique on its own? I don't know whether it helps you to say this but I want to make sure that, as we say: "if it's not broke don't try to fix it". I was thinking before to start from scratch when I got the book and Dvd but then realised that reinterpreting the words may make me think I wasn't already doing something as it was being described because I had a different way of realising it when I reworked my technique about 6 years ago on my own. I have a golden rule (one which I picked up from a masterclass from Stephen Kovacevich) - "it has to feel easy". I'm relearning the Barcarolle as I said in the last post and I'm really being disciplined about what doesn't feel right. I discovered a technique to play quick full sounding chords in the end of the first section (b32) before the transition to the second section. Then that evening I happen to be reading the chapter in Alans second book on levers. I realised that as I was reading I could relate to the words because I had discovered it that day by finding my way to play these chords easy with dynamics from f to pp. Anyway my point is I wondered if you were doing the same thing and trying to practice the techniques within a work you are doing as it is helping me and I love to find things only to have them confirmed The thumb and second finger I will have to monitor constantly in each piece I do. When it comes to octaves I must have absorbed what the book and dvd said because I'm now grasping more and it's easier and have more power is available to me if I want it. I'm not saying everything is perfect but I'm monitoring it constantly until its all second nature. Even then I will probably always be relearning! Eric I love Lisitsa's version of the thirds the most!! She looks as though she plays the E part of the trill with both 4 & 5. Do you think the 5 just falls as a consequence of playing the 4th. I've been trying this trill with 1/4 2/5. One of my weaknesses is the 4-5 trill. It's strange because in the Barcarolle trill I feel I've got it now. In this study the trill goes the other way. I've tried playing the 3/4 as she does but my hand feels distorted. I've only seen Porgolich do the 4/5 fingering on YouTube however. Everyone else seems to adopt the 3/4 fingering. . I find the latter breaking up the singing line to emphasise a chord which is uneccesary. I've never personally played in the style of the "romantic" rubato. cheers!

Hi! I agree about the "octave"-part of the DVD it really improved my octaves. To start from the feeling in the fingers is great.another effect of that approach is that you develop the muscels in your palm as you grasp or form the arch. This "technique" is useful whatever you do it's much more stable to use these muscles in the palm of the hand when "reaching" with your fingers-instead of spreading out the fingers-when possible.Hard to explain in english for me. I don't know if VL plays with both 4-5 possibly she does. G Cziffra used this technique especially when he wanted an accent on the 5th in octaves in the base. I guess it depends on your hand. I largly prefere Rubinstein he had to fight against this overexaggerated rubatotradition that was predominant when he was a teenager. Can't even listen to the Kempf interpretation.But that is of course totally subjective in the end of the day you have to play it your way.I guess people mostly try to get teachers with similar temperament. When I wrote "keeping fingers tight" I didn't mean all the time- here and there but especially when "attacing" the scales up and down. It feels a bit like the fingers are not moving att all just like the arch is flying. I don't know what Art Tatum is doing but whatch him!! We all have preferences with les études for me the Op25 #6 is manageble but Op 10#2 gives me a headache. I don't know why. Rubinstein didn't play Op 25#6 (I think) and he had his pinky as long as his 4th but still didn't manage it. I'm in no position to give advice you should really adress Alan on these matters and one of the most stunning performers of these etudes I know is Kemal Gekic. Just unbeleivable. Here is an interpretation I like it's with another etude in the base but I like the rythm in the right hand.(Sergio Tiempo-agerich successor). Eric

Hi Thanks for posting that link to Sergio Tiempo. I actually went on to listen to his interviews as well of which some very interesting things were said about the composer creating an eternity of possibilities of music interpretation and that the interpreter tries to create an instance of eternity. I like the way he describes music as trying to explain the inexplainable!!: He is so lucky to have been brought up in a musical family as the piano comes naturally to him. I like the sounds he produces!! I wonder if Argerich teaches technique or whether all her pupils that she teaches are natural like herself. Cheers

Hi phoenix and Eric, sorry for the late reply, I have few time for the moment due to hard working with my job. For your questions, son't worry, no problem : I'm not a professional player though I have studied in Belgian Conservatory for years in the past, but I discovered that I was missing something. And that's what I'm discovering now, at 45 yearl old !, OK, it's best than never... I don't do technique as a a separate method, I don't like to play just scales, etc...I play directly pieces and repertoire. For example, at the moment, I'm working on one very nice posthume Chopin Walz (), the Chopin Ecossaises and some older things I learned in the past (Bach preludes and Fugues, Shubert impromptu, Cramer etude Eb minor N°31, etc). Please, can I ask you what you think about the Alan's book : "Honing the pianistic Self Image" Did you read it or helped it in any way ? I have the Alan's DVD, but had no extra guide with it. So only the DVD is perhaps not enough complete. I'm making really very interesting discoveries but I think I already reach some limits because only relying on the "easy way to play" seems not to be sufficient. I think I should have some guidelines on how to play this or that particular passage (large jumps, octaves, trills, etc). Which movements are to be used, and so on. Anyway, thanks again for all your feedbacks and interestings thoughts. Kind regards. Jack

Hi Salante I hope your workload eases off at work soon! I'm taking a kind of sabbatical of about 3/4 months at the moment to concentrate on piano, and a competition, and just easing off on my heavy last 2 years in IT in London. Hence all this time I seem to be spending writing posts - which I'm enjoying I think it's good to describe your processes as it makes you think and go over things in your head and you may find an answer yourself! About your question on Honing the piansitic... book. I've found this book the most useful personally for me. I hope I'm not misrepresenting it by saying it goes way beyond the basic principles of the first book and the Dvd where you study the arch and the "basics" of piano technique. I don't mean basics as in beginner level as I myself am still learning. Perhaps I mean foundations of piano technique. The first book is a "how to" approach with many examples which I refer to by reference. The second book I found reading chapter by chapter. I find it deeper and more connecting with my experiences - even the new experiences each day. It still has the step by step processes and some musical examples - a lot more of the chopin etudes actually! I think some of the chapters seem like an evolution to the ideas of the first book. I accept that confusion may occur but it's an ongoing subject which I don't expect to be summarised. I think Alan is always experimenting and finding new ways to describe the process and this comes accross in the book. There are chapters on phrasing, pedalling and the different techniqes but in a kind of masterclass format. For example there's focus on sections of Appasionata, Chopin op10.4 etude, and Rachmaninov 2nd concerto. You say you are not a professional pianist - well neither am I. But you are of a standard where you could be by developing? I just made a choice to earn real money to live. I used to be a professional musician - teaching, accompanying, performing. But I couldn't live on very little money that they offered compared with the cost of living, housing etc. Like you I knew something was missing from my technique and perhaps instinctively I knew I should find this in my own time and not force it to become a profession. That was 10 years ago. I practically gave up for most of that because I was not regularly practicing unless the odd performance opportunity arose. How difficult is it in Belgium to be involved in music? I used to work in Belgium as a computor programmer in Hasselt. When I visit Europe (the last time was Warsaw) I always get the impression there is alot of music activities for amateurs as well as professionals. I don't know whether that's the right perception though. Cheers S

Hi Jack I quit piano totally for 20 years and when I started again I found Craft of piano. I knew from the beginning that it was really good stuff in fact some of my best teachers(some of them really wellknown performers) taught me similar things. What I found different was that Alan had been analyzing and researching during a long period and put things together more or less scientifically and could explain why this and that was the most efficient-in detail with anatomic and neurological and sometimes esotheric explanations. I've never seen or heard that before. If you ask me, both books (especially the Honing..) and DVD are just indespensable for a student it's a reference book to go back to over and over again. Which doesn't exclude other teachings technique is an individual enigma and one has to find out what works for oneself. I beleive all great pianists (instrumentalists) have one thing in common and that is the complete effortslessness. And the most common mistake is to mix up relaxation and effortlessness.It's very similar to ballet I think. So I strongly recommend books and DVD-especially if you want to find a new way to play.I'm 53 myself and I don't want to waste a second on things that wont work. My goal when I took up piano again was to aquire the sound and flawlessness I didn't reach in my youth I had impressing mecanics but I was to exploited and played pieces way over my capacities. My sound and fluidity has improved and what I like most the stagefright has diminished due to a much more stable and confident technique.Just now I'm working at levelling down everything trying to stay within the range ppp-mf- a good approach to the Craft of I'd say.It's funny how you can level down on a good instrument I have the feeling that I level down 99% and then 99% again and again. Before I kind of killed the overtones with my misadopted alignments etc. It's all in the books... Bien à vous Eric

Thanks so much phoenix and Eric ! Your comments are stimulating. phoenix, that's fine to have a rest to work intensively on piano. I hope you can really concentrate on your competition target. Is it too indiscrete to ask you which is your program ? I'll order the "HONING THE PIANISTIC SELF-IMAGE" and probably the Study Guide of the DVD. In fact, I didn't order the Student Guide of the DVD because I didn't know in the beginning, it was a complement. I expected the guide to be shipped with the DVD... anyway, thanks for your recommendations. You know phoenix, we have some common points. I'm also IT consultant here in Belgium. I know Hasselt where you have been (in north Flanders region of Belgium), that's crazy. Moreover, I know one of my brother's colleague working at Toyota Belgium, who is also programming in IT...and he's from the U.K. as well, huh ! Haha. Your feeling about music and musicians in Belgium (Europe ?) is true. I think there are lots of fantastic musicians in every country in the world. They just are not famous, maybe, but there are lots of them. In Belgium, you have very good musicians, with some preponderance in Jazz maybe. The classical musical schools are not very good in Belgium- to my advice. Music is not really a priority, mostly. For example, when I was younger, I had one hour or two of music course in the school. Now, this isn't the case anymore. However, I think that the musical schools in the U.K? are very good, isn't it ? Eric, it's also fine that you go on with learning, I'm 100% with you. It's not because we discover things maybe lat(er) that we cannot evoluate in music. I'm 45 years old, and I don't want to stop learning and improve. With the few time remaining for leisures, it's fine to have discovered all what we are speaking about here. Thanks for your advice for the books as well. Please, could you detail what you mean with "levelling down"...you mean, you play easier pieces or less difficult that you did in the past ? Or perhaps you mean that you can apply the Alan's recommendations and your own discoveries but only playing ppp-mf ? If it's this last point, it should reassure me because when I want to play "relax" (in the right sense, not relax as flaw...), I feel I can do it p or mf, but if I want to play louder, it's as if it was not yet acquired and the stiffness might arrise back...maybe you understand. phoenix, do you understand what I mean ? Good evening, my friends.

Bon soir/Goedenavond Eric and Salante! Hasselt is an odd town I thought. I remember for lunch ordering Grosse Ham und Kaas met sla ! I went to Brussels many times - in fact I loved the trendy sidewalk where there is a chicken place, irish bars and internet cafes among other things. I can't remember the road (it has all those tunnel roads) as it seems parallel with a road at the back where all the posh Hotels are. Do you know? My friend lived in Brussels at the back of that road I'm talking about. Next to his block of flats was a little cafe/restaurant where you could eat at 2/3 am and they had a little dog that loved sugar cubes. I stayed in Mechelen (I remember somewhere near Leuverickenstraat) for a while which I didn't like much. Then moved to Leuven very briefly before returning to the UK. Ah memories How do you like I.T ? I'm no longer a programmer now though I'm a technical tester instead as it doesn't run my life and is easier! Back to music! The study guide I never found useful.. it reminds me of being on a student course too much where you have to memorise answers. Ive got it but never use it. I have my own learning curve. About the relax. I think you mean you want to be relaxed and be able to play ppp- ffff and therefore you don't want to play works that might make you tense up and end up playing not relaxed especially at ffff? I'm wondering if relax is the right word sometimes. You need to be Loose but your hand doesnt feel soft and floppy.. you feel a kind of solidity. Do you think this is what you mean? I posted something on my post chopin op10.no2 in this technique forum. Check it out if you are interested. I made a great discovery the last few days!! I learnt relax playing and I was able to play this etude and now I'm beginning well with the thirds etude. I was worried I would lose it once I was having a break. But you know something - your brain still works when you are sleeping! You may lose a little the next day but you have to do a little work again to get it back and you have to keep doing this until its become part of your natural playing. My friend has an old Bechstein 6"7 grand and I found it hard to play before. I thought it was a heavy action and it is compared to a lot of new pianos. But actually Ive just played it and I had to be lighter and MORE relaxed to get the sound out that I wanted. I'm a little like you wondering if I will lose it with difficult pieces but I'm finding the opposite. I'm learning more with difficult pieces as I'm working on my weaknesses. Actually for the competition I'm re-learning a really difficult piece (it's only a 10 minute programme by Chopin I have to play). I'm re-learning the Barcarolle. I'm finding so much out with this work. It's how I learnt relax playing accidentally - I owe it to the 6ths and the double third trills actually. The competition is the The 'Kemble Chopin Piano E-Competition'. . I have to upload to YouTube. I hope I make it in time - I'm kind of on a steep learning curve where I'm not only trying to learn the craft of piano techniques but also this great work which musically I've really thought about and now want to achieve the sound I have in my head. I've a lot to do still. Once I upload the video you can see. The UK is odd for music. I feel it doesn't support it's own nationality. The music schools are more interested in getting in overseas students because they get more fees. The music societies also only seem interested in famous pianists/musicians. There are people who aren't famous and who are like a big fish in a little pond so to speak. But everyone keeps things close to their chest - I feel like its cut throat/dog eat dog etc and not that many opportunities for people like us. I will do this competition and I do get posted for overseas Amature competitions. So maybe next time I will go to Europe!! Happy practicing! Cheers!

Good evening phoenix, quick reply ! Thanks. It seems you know the Hasselt's and Mechelen details best than me...I'm living in Brussels and just knew the places, not in detail...congratulations, you speak dutch and german (and english). The Alan's student's guide, I will think about it...not sure it's so interesting finally. In between, I have seen the following : . Do you know this one ? I don't know the difference with the study guide of the "- Honing the PIANISTIC SELF-IMAGE"... About "relax" playing, yes, as you mention "be Loose but your hand doesnt feel soft and floppy.. you feel a kind of solidity". This is exactly what I mean, yes ! I have had some discussion with Alan regarding this "relaxing" playing. We concluded that there are several ways to understand "relax". The wrong one (which I experienced in the past) and the right one. The right one, is the one which allows for ease playing but with solid tone and hand architecture. I think you mentionned also "it has to feel easy". This is the point ! And what is wonderful, is that when a difficult passage (this is relative though) comes, if we "relax" correctly, the passage appears not difficult at all. And if more attention is given to the "ease", more ease it is. At the beginning of tis discovery, I always scare that if I relax, it will not sound and will not be ok, but in fact, it is the contrary, it is becoming tremendous easy (but I don't play Campanella or Opue10.2 or thirds yet... haha). And you are also right when you say that the next day, it seems being gone...but the brain and the body apparently assimilate it and after some time, it keeps fixed. But you have more experience than with this, for me, it's rather new (some weeks). Even if I was discovering it gradually. I have found some link on Youtube about the contest, but the link you sent me doesn't work (it says "invalid password". I think you need some login to access this...). But don't worry, I have the info (). I didn't know about this competition. It's fine that it gives the opportunity for "amateurs" to participate in a contest. And I didn't know the Kemble pianos's as well... We will be pleased to hear you on Youtube soon. Regarding the music in the U.K. it seems as in many other countries. I observed that in the conservatories, there are often overseas students (asian overall). Just for financial aspects ? Regrettably. Good working. Regards. Jack

Hi Salante The revised second book you ask about - I've asked Alan if it was much different to the first edition. He said there a few things that are new but probably not enough that it's so different from the first edition. He recommended that if you have the first book (first edition) then getting the Honing... and of course the Dvd is a good bet! There is a post on the forum about it. I don't know if I'm that experienced in the ease of playing as you think! I'm feeling a bit of a beginner again actually because I have to "wear in" this new feeling I've discovered. Perhaps you are the experienced one if you have been doing it for weeks I don't speak languages really. I try a little French and German but I'm not conversational! If I lived in a different country I would love to speak another language fluently. But in England there is not really any incentive and you can't practice anywhere in the UK unless you don't want anyone to understand you. Cheers S