Discovering "relax" playing, what is your advice..

Hi phoenix, thanks a lot for your time in replying so deeply. Sure, I understand your point of view regarding the "zone" now. I didn't know the book "the Inner Game of Music". Maybe it should be interesting to read. Is this not a "commercial" book, just to sell ? If the contents is really interessant, I could order it. For the link I sent previously, it should work...with sound hopefully. About the Peter Orths explanation on Chopin Etude opus 10 N°2, I read " I read Peter Orths description of how to practice Chopin etude 10.2 which I think made me practice at first the wrong choreography (kinesthetic template)"... do you mean that you think that the way described is not correct or that you tink you did not do it correctly ? SOrry, I'm not sure to understand. Thanks for your input with my question "audience in performance". I just wanted to know if you could apply your "findings" while performing with an audience (in public, thus), but you largely answered with the first part of your reply. Finally, regarding the last point "why should we care about so much precision and work..." if public sometimes doesn't care about all these details. Humm, personally I think that we should first serve the music and composer, and yourself, before serving the public...so, working hard deep is a personal choice. And of course, sometimes, I tink that in the crowd, it might be some music specialists. Maybe out there some musicians... OK Phoenix, thanks again for your post ! Jack

Hi Jack The inner game of music can be bought. If you look on amazon. Its not very expensive. Regarding your comment: Finally, regarding the last point "why should we care about so much precision and work..." if public sometimes doesn't care about all these details. Humm, personally I think that we should first serve the music and composer, and yourself, before serving the public...so, working hard deep is a personal choice. And of course, sometimes, I tink that in the crowd, it might be some music specialists. Maybe out there some musicians... OK Phoenix, thanks again for your post ! Jack I seriously didn't mean that why should I bother about my art - it was a kind of sarcasm to say many people in an audience will think anything is good if it sounds technically brilliant even if there was no passion or artistry/poetry. I've been to concerts of famous pianists and they were boring but very technical - but they were just going through the motions. The audience thought they were amazing. About serving yourself the music and the composer. Music is meant to be communicated to an audience whether 1 or 2 or hundreds. As performers we have to serve the music and composer by as faithfully as possible communicating to the audience. I never aim to play for myself when I perform as that would be what I call a selfish performance where you don't involve the audience listening. But I practice for myself and want to improve for my own development. Audiences do include good musicians and some of the public do have good ears for music. But we also have to be marketable. That means we have to please everyone in an audience - the media/critics and the concert organisers and the agents, and many music clubs won't entertain any talent unless you have a "pedigree". What I mean by this is a pianist who has won this and that competition etc. Competitions are one of my bug bears as they produce mainly "safe" playing. Yet careers are made on "safe playing" and audiences think this is what music should sound like. Like everything these days music is focussed on business rather than an art for art sake. There is more pressure to perform technically demanding programs quickly and record the whole works of composers, and apparently audiences are wowed by technical flashy playing whether musical or not! Well that's the way I understand things to be anyhow. I'd love to be wrong though About the op.10.2. I actually started practicing heavy and on the 3,4,5 fingers in the RH. I could never get up to the suggested tempo of 144 with this method. Alan described to me to stand on my thumb more which mean that 3,4,5 would be lighter and could move faster. Perhaps knowing this information the same description would read differently. But the key information for me was missing. I hope I've clarified a few points now. Cheers Sharon

Hi phoenix, once again, thanks for taking the time to answer to my wonderings. It clarified. Kind regards. Jack

Hi! Interesting discussion you have. Here are some thoughts... Alans advice on Chopin op10 nr2 is to concentrate on the thumb and 2nd. One of the great benefits with book&dvd for me was that I to my great disbeleif discovered that that part of the hand was pretty unfunctional.And I had a terrific basic technical training-the old hard school. It's hard to beleive. It's not just a question of hand and fingers the whole mecanism needs to be involved in getting this part of the hand functional. For me the most convincing result was that Feux-Follets could suddenly be played with an ease never acheived before. As for audiences-I'd say never underestimate them. Today people in general are much more "musical" than they used to be we're surrounded by music. Most people can hear the difference between performers and a lukewarm reaction is the best teacher in the world. The trick is to catch the temperature quickly and adopt no? Pianists like Volodos does electrify the audience by their orchestration and deep insights into the compositions not the fireworks.And by immidiate reaction to public response. He had a hard struggle with the spoiled audience in Vienna... I take the buddhist view here- it all comes from you it's your perception of the audiences perception that matters. Of course competitions has produced a large group of totally boring performers trying to adopt to demands far away from themselves. But I think things are changing. I live for the moment in Luxembourg and follow the Reine Elisabeth on TV and my impression is that most performances are flawless rectified and boring.You can't see the jury (poor guys) but the reactions of the orchestra leaves no further comment. But there are a few exceptions eg the bulgarian guy an experienced competition-participant who take risks and orchestrate.And even dare to pull faces.I'd say a guy like that would have had problems some decades ago but not so today.very promising indeed. One good thing with this ultra-competitive market (with 20million chinese pianists entering the scene) is that it's killing itself and opens up for individual initiatives on the recording-side and performing-side. I hope I'll have the opportunity to listen to you some day! Eric

Hi Eric Thanks for joining in the discussion. I am yet to see things changing on a grand scale. I agree with you that the Chinese will probably burn out some aspects of what is happening. (Although they are now flooding the market with their soul-less piano brands now!!) I like to hear individuality and risk taking. I think to a certain extent although the technical ability is there from a risky pianist people like to be on edge that it sounds like it could go wrong. That's when the pianist has spontaneously gone into a musical frenzy almost, and the technical side has to keep up not the other way around! It's exciting. I think that's why people like Argerich so much. The Chopin 10.2 has improved. I'm comfortable around metronome 120 and I've seen glimpses of 138. Can you play this up to speed? How did you progress - I mean what kind of practice techniqes did you use? I have never seen Volodos in public only on TV. I wasn't referring however to this calibre of playing when I mentioned technical but not musical. About hearing us play one day and competitions. I love the fact that the Amateur competition is now quite widespread. I was sick of seeing ageism in competitions. Must be under 21 or 35 etc. I had to make money in I.T therefore sacrificing my time in music. I wish I could have been privaleged to learn at 3 and have lessons with "A best teacher" but I didn't therefore I'm a late developer. I started at 15 and went to University at 19. Good thing now though is I own my own company and can take time off when I need to. I am entering an E-competition in UK. I will have to upload my entry to YouTube. I will post it in the next few months so you will have chance to listen and give your comments and even vote!! Have you entered any competitions or do you play professionally? cheers Sharon

Hi Eric, you're welcome. I think it's a great opportunity to follow the Reine Elisabeth competition. I have just heard some of the participants untill now and I admit that the Bulgarian Bozhanov is terrible. phoenix, we would be pleased to hear from you through Youtube soon... Regards. Jack

Hi My last try got lost in cyberspace.As to your question I'm an amateur, restarted to play two years ago for my pleasure but as I have time and a marvelous grand I'm getting in to the game more than I planned so I just started to perform in minor circumstances.My aim is really recording.Started at age four and quit in my twenties due to massive pressure from home and studied economics at the University..During that period I performed a lot, attended masterclasses and conservatory and got kicked out of two competitions.I'm now 50+ and amazed that progress is possible if you just give it time and dedication. I played the Op10 in public and I still remeber that #2 was the real problem especially if you got carried away with the #1. Have not studied the etudes lately, but quite a few probably very good pianists have expressed the good progress on #2 applying Alan's advice on this sight. I worked the Feux-Follets which have similar problems. Before I worked the #2 with rythmization stopping at relaxing-points,I played with metronome 1beat/ mesure and 1beat/2mesures I played it in another key and what I think helped the most was visualizing.One of my teachers was good at that technique and really had speed.But I never got it up to 144(is it?) when performing I had to play with some rubato. Good idea to participate in the "amateur" competitions much more fun and regarding quality not so far from the traditional ones. It's amazing what kind of progress you can do on your own. Good luck!! Eric

Thanks Salante & Eric. I'm re-learning Chopin Barcarolle for the competition as it is a Chopin competition. I like the idea of Amateur competitions (I've entered a few before when I was younger but they weren't called amateur then). I like the idea that people despite their lives and careers are still playing and want to perform. They are for me a platform to play and to work towards and hopefully meet new people. I'd love to meet a potential piano duet partner too!!! Eric it's great that you are still going and its encouraging to hear you improve continually. I've no doubts that anyone can get better but that's the teacher in me talking, although I don't teach anymore I might add. It's proven that you can teach "an old dog new tricks" - no reference to anyone here as an old dog!! But I saw a Taubmann clip on YouTube and she read out an article from a newspaper on science saying how the brain finds new paths to learn once it reaches a plato. If you are interested here is the link: I find op10.2 and the 25.6 (double thirds) the hardest to learn actually. Op10.1 is easier for example to get going once the hand has the right position. My hand actually feels massive when I get around the arpeggios and I barely have a 10th stretch. Have you tried the double thirds in op.25? I think it's one of those techniques I haven't came accross that much which is why I'm inexperieced at the double trilling at the start. In fact its the opening that I have problems with to get up to speed. I seem to be able to play double third scales!! cheers S

Hi Eric and phoenix, hope you're fine. I read carefully your last comments. About the Chopin studies, I don't dare to (re)play them quite now, because I'm "reorganizing" my play with my last discoveries. As I played some of them previously, I would not like the bad habits to come back...maybe someday I'll go deeper in the Op25 with double thirds, but this is terrific to me ! Opus10.2 is very difficult as well. Thank you for the link, phoenix. I've listened it and it's very interesting. Can I ask you what is your advice about the "Virtuosity in a box" series by Taubmann ? For the moment, I'm interested in all those things because it has already drastically changed my play, so I want to go further. But I don't want to have all stuffs here and there for nothing. Maybe you have some advice or recommendations. Kind regards. Jack

Hi I think the Op 25#6 is a bit overrated. Dinu Lipatti was said to practice it every day 15m for a year but a student of his told me it was just practising thirds-more fun than scales. I think the trick is to be light and to be very aware of the two melodies in the thirds especially with the thumb and 2. Personally I prefere the Chopin fingering but you could look at different ones eg Liszt (as in his exercises) Godowsky or Busoni. Or find out what suites you. Maybe it is not recommendable but I keep my fingers very tight together in some passages. Here is what I think is a very god attitude with this etude light but with a firm arch and with good support from arm and body: Thank's for the link! Voff! Eric