Continuing playing Piano at older age

Hello Maestro Alan, Many greetings to you from the beautiful Pacific Northwest, in Bellingham, Washington. The arrival of your DVD three days ago was much anticipated. I think I watched the 8- minute demo of your DVD on YouTube about 10 times! I want to first express my deep gratitude and appreciation for all the work you and your colleagues did in producing the DVD. You see Alan, after watching your DVD and implementing just the info from chapter one on looking at the arch structure of one's hand, I was able to sit down and play the piano without pain and residual discomfort for one hour, which is something I haven't been able to do in SEVEN years. I got tendonitis seven years ago, and thus my search for preventative, injure free piano technique started. Without mentioning names (although you already have critiqued these folks on your website), I have flown back east twice to attend week long workshops and institutes, spending literally thousands of dollars along the line, and I still continued to play with discomfort and pain. Then…your DVD arrived and it hit me like a brick. You see, your approach to technique makes the most sense bio-mechanically, physiologically, and sonically. When I saw that first clip of Brailowsky playing Chopin's A-flat waltz, and that camera shot under his hands showing that beautiful cathedral arch you so expertly demonstrated, I about fell off my chair. Then I started to mentally peruse all the internal images I have of seeing the greats perform. Really, I have seen all those videos you excerpted on your DVD; actually I own all those videos! And so on a very simplistic basis I started implementing just a few ideas you suggested, and you were right on the nose. Do you realize that when I put both my hands up to a wall, like you did in the video, the arches and joints in my hands all went flat!!! There was no arch structure, and you were right on when you said that the arch structure is generally the weak link in all of piano technique. Then you backed it up with that cool anecdote about Neuhaus and what he did to students' hand arches. I mean I could go on and on about the million "ah-ha" moments I had while watching your DVD. I am completely exhilarated and convinced about the soundness and caliber of your teachings and discovery. That's the beautiful thing, you cared enough to take the time to really figure this stuff out and make a positive impact on people's lives, and for that I am truly thankful. On a side note, I am also Canadian, having been born in the Vancouver area, and hearing your Canadian accent was a real treat. Also, you are an absolute riot to watch! My wife heard me laughing my head off and asked, "I thought you were watching a piano technique video?" and then you fell off the bench.....that was great!! I could go on and on but I know your time is valuable and precious but I just wanted you to know that 10,000 miles away you helped make a difference in the life of one pianist (and I'm sure thousands more to come). If it's OK with you, I'll keep you updated on my progress with implementing the other aspects you address in the DVD, and I am going to tell all my musician friends as well as some great professors of piano here at Western Washington University. I want to do all I can to help you get the word out about your DVD. Thanks again for helping serve your fellow man. Many Blessings to you in Novi Sad! Sincerely, Jamie PS. At some point I'd love to hear more about your Horowitz experiences. I'm only 34 and by the time I got interested in piano, he had already passed away…

michael, i 'd really love to help you!I already told you to post some of your videos if you want.That's the only way we could see and hear what the problem is. Somehow, i still can't believe that you PLAY that bad like you say you do..I d so like to see your video!!!! On other things i can't help , it's all up to you.I really think that you can play that piano and the fact you can't do it now<or haven't been able to do for all those years> is obviously making you frustrated.So, that is not our problem.As i said,the only thing i can do to make you feel better is to listen and see you at piano. And make some comments. I hope that will give you some directions.Common, you are a grown man, do you really need a teacher to baby-sit you?

Somehow, i still can't believe that you PLAY that bad like you say you do..I d so like to see your video!!!! Yeah. That's what I said. I said exactly that earlier in the thread that the problem is that you were arguing with what I said because you didn't believe it. In response you said "I do believe you" That's now clearly a lie in whatever language you wanna speak in, mate. I might throw back your own petard. C'mon you're a grown man, you can act like one and be honest with us? You aren't voting in Eurovision song contest now Any buffoon can look at a video and say "You're right, your playing does suck" - I could do that on youtube all the time. Thing is, I can't tell the guys on youtube how to play. How to fix their playing. That's the difference. Can you? You see, what would follow from that video is the key thing. Because the video isn't proof of how long I've been playing, nor of the pain. If you don't believe I can't play - then when you see someone who can't play you will just decide that something else isn't true instead, won't you? And please be honest, if only because you aren't good enough yet at not being With the greatest respect in the world to you, you said it yourself, that you don't understand English very well and that the guru is Alan - and Alan said himself that he hadn't read the thread. Who said it was your problem? I certainly didn't. If I recall correctly you said, in response to my posts, that you would post some videos of Alan teaching his exercises. Subsequently Alan said he was going to post about some teachers in London. Now obviously none of you are not under obligation to do anything, and perhaps I've missed these posts? But... To discern how bad my playing is, no. Which is another reason I thought twice about posting a video for you to look at - because I already know it sucks. To learn piano, it would seem that is the case. Yes. From your tone I suspect you had a point to make though. Why not just make it? You won't hurt my feelings. But, because I'm an adult, that doesn't make playing the piano easier, does it? Well, I guess I can reach the pedals Indeed, lore often suggests the opposite. So your point is lost as far as I can see. Had I been saying I was scared of the dark or something "childish" perhaps you could have tried that "grow up" tack. But growing up won't make any of us better pianists. Ok, so, let's talk about the video again for a minute. You'll note my last response to Alan was pretty much thanking you all and saying that I was giving up. Not much point posting a video, yep? It's a possibility too. So, although Alan did mention the video in his post which more or less said "I've been away and you've written thousands....err..oh it's actually about 12 posts...most of which I've supposedly already read because I've replied to them...you'll need to post it again .." request I figured Alan was too busy and my playing too bad and thought "I may as well pack in". Had Alan asked initially for a video rather than you and your 'The dvd's great guys...err, it is actually out yet?' friend, I might have considered his request. But, as you know, he said he hadn't read the thread. I didn't want him to feel he should look at a video because someone else had asked for one. Plus, he offered a better solution anyway It was Alan who carried on the conversation, saying "Don't give in" and so on. You'll also note that because Alan said that he hadn't read the posts, I have gone over some of the points already made, which you may have already read. So if you've read the same old thing again, jocahdj, and that's the cause of your frustration, it's because Alan asked for it again. But, if you're saying that you aren't going to post those videos that you promised...and if Alan isn't going to post details for UK teachers and the only option is a video, then I will try to post a video. But I don't have a film crew and equipment - I can't just materialise a video out of thin air. I'd need to get that stuff But I don't want to waste our time either. Will it help? Or am I just spending money to make a video that will merely satisfy the curiosity of a guy who lied to try and get me to post a video? Again, as I said to Alan, it also seems clear to me that his response will be for me to use his material - because he believes in it - and despite his following defensive post, I didn't mean that as a criticism. That's fair enough - but I have his material and he never said "Post a video" Anyway, as I've said making a video begs the question of what to play in it, and what exactly the response to it will be. Which is another reason why I went through the myriad questions thing with Alan. Amongst other things, I try to play with bench high / low. Moving wrists, fingers / arms and so on. All these different things. So would I video Alan's exercises, easy pieces I can't play, difficult pieces I can't play, just doodling around and so on. I can see me playing Chopin and someone will say "You should play something easier" - I've seen all the usual wise guy responses to other people's playing. It doesn't bother me, but I already know that for free. Can you really offer something else? Even if Alan watches, a single video runs more risk of someone saying "It's that" and missing the bigger picture. That is, one reason, after all, why 99.99% of people who go to a teacher, even if they are all grown up go to the teacher rather than send them a video of their playing.

Hello Maestro Alan, I think you've misinterpreted what I meant. But no matter. If you're happy with his review, be happy with it I think it proves my point though. YMMV. I get the impression your friend, if not you, wants me to stop posting but couldn't find it in himself to suggest it. So I shall take the hint, but lastly, is there any chance of the details of these UK teachers? I was hoping that they would have a couple of websites to show, so I could see the what for. But failing that, whatever you can do I'll appreciate. At this point, it doesn't matter where in the UK they are relative to me, I'll travel if need be. Thanks.

Somehow, i still can't believe that you PLAY that bad like you say you do..I d so like to see your video!!!! Yeah. That's what I said. I said exactly that earlier in the thread that the problem is that you were arguing with what I said because you didn't believe it. In response you said "I do believe you" That's now clearly a lie in whatever language you wanna speak in, mate. I might throw back your own petard. C'mon you're a grown man, you can act like one and be honest with us? You aren't voting in Eurovision song contest now Look, you got a wrong impression here.Why should i lie to you?I am just trying to help you.It is you who have a negative attitude for this. Thing is, I can't tell the guys on youtube how to play. How to fix their playing. That's the difference. Can you? Why does it have to be youtube?I didnt mention it coz i know how mean people could be there.There are bunch of hosting websites where you can upload your HOME MADE video-don't spend the money on making one, and then you just post the link here, and we download a video.Thats it!! and that the guru is Alan - and Alan said himself that he hadn't read the thread. I said that english is not my mother tongue so that you could understand i am trying to do my best here and also to understand why my answers are not so "colorful" as yours. I can speak english-you can play the piano.I don't think i could teach english in oxford university- i don't think you could play like horowitz.Is that what you want? This might look odd for you, but thats how i see it. If I recall correctly you said, in response to my posts, that you would post some videos of Alan teaching his exercises. Yes, i did!!And it will happen, it;s just we are to busy right now.But i promises you this:As soon as i find some nice hosting and transfer this forum there i will find as many alans videos i can and make it public.It might take some time to prepare them , or i just put them on the server as they are.You will know when that happans! To discern how bad my playing is, no. Which is another reason I thought twice about posting a video for you to look at - because I already know it sucks. YOu, see, thats a bad attitude.Maybe you are wrong??What if there are some really nice things in your playing and you are not even aware of it? Its not all in playing fast, or...whatever you image is, but i can see its not complete! But, because I'm an adult, that doesn't make playing the piano easier, does it? Well, I guess I can reach the pedals Very Happy Indeed, lore often suggests the opposite. So your point is lost as far as I can see. What i meant is that you have enough brain to tell you what are you doing wrong, since you are an adult.In piano playing, dont take it wrong please!! You didin't understand this one!Maybe its because of well known serbian humour? But, as you know, he said he hadn't read the thread. I didn't want him to feel he should look at a video because someone else had asked for one. Alan reads thees threads, didn't you notice that?And i m sure he would be glad to watch your video, since you 've seen his and since you are an active member of this forum.He is learning form everything and everybody so i am sure your video would "teach him something"! It was Alan who carried on the conversation, saying "Don't give in" and so on. Yeah, dont give up!!This has become kinda personal for me! So if you've read the same old thing again, jocahdj, and that's the cause of your frustration, it's because Alan asked for it again. Not at all!I am not the one who is frustrated dude!Nobody is forcing me to read and answer these threads.It is strictly voluntarily.I could have been doing something else now.Such a nice day today!! Thats it!See you around! Jovan

Look, you got a wrong impression here.Why should i lie to you?I am just trying to help you.It is you who have a negative attitude for this. I don't know why, but since you hadn't learn to quote at that stage it's not necessarily that clear either. I made a post where I said, amongst a lot of other things, that I didn't think you believed me. You replied to that once again asking for a video and saying "I trust you micheal and you convinced me there is no doubt.It just that here in Serbia i ve never had a chance to meet a guy like you" So, the next time you ask for a video - when you say "I still don't believe..." well read it yourself. Then you can see why (a) The word "still" implies that my impression was right. You didn't appear in your posts to accept what I was saying, and you 'still' don't. But you tell me what impression you think I should get from that? I'm open for suggestions. As I say, the fact you didn't quote gives you plenty of room to claim something. I dunno, perhaps you trusted someone called Micheal, not Michael. Who, although he can't spell his name properly, he did manage to gain your trust and convince you of something completely different about another video you wanted Go ahead, be creative. Video it and I'll do a swap. But, whatever it was, I shan't sue or anything BUT haven't I been sitting here telling you how bad I am at playing? There's nothing anyone on youtube can say that I don't already know. Trust me, there's no ego here that youtube might upset. Even if they don't like the wallpaper What I do find ironic is that the usual call for video proof is to the guy that's talking UP his playing. So something has to be more wrong than a language barrier here. Perhaps some of the defensive reaction is that you think I'm farting in Alan's church for want of a better phrase? I hope that's not it, because my posts have never done anything other than give my honest opinions of it and experiences with it - and I certainly wouldn't suggest that anyone else should or shouldn't buy the DVD based on my experiences. But no matter. Whatever it is. I just went for a walk in the rain and thought about this thread and now we've established that you don't believe me, you clearly can't help unless you do. So, please, let's just look one more time in different words - because if you think about it I'm sure you'll see there's no mystery to my playing ability - and I'm sure if you haven't experienced it yourself, you can easily find plenty of examples. Let's forget the pain. If you could help with that aspect then you wouldn't need video proof and you wouldn't be suggesting that perhaps I'm wrong when I say I can't play. You aren't medically qualified and you aren't pretending to be either, and since you took offence for some reason when I jokingly suggested a thought experiement how Alan might have incorporated pain into his "walking at the piano" pieces, we didn't get very far with that. So I can accept that you can't help there - To be honest, I never expected DVD exercises to do that either...although I seem to have upset Alan by suggesting that might be the case. Clearly there are people who are cured of various ailments and pain merely by the great Wazoo shouting "YABBA GRISTLE BOOMARANG" at them. He has the letters to prove it. For some of us, cynical old buffoons like myself, we're not so easily convinced. We could be wrong of course. All you need to know, whether you believe or not, the pain is more than enough knowledge for me to know that my playing is wrong, irrespective of what it sounds like. But even if I had no pain, let's say the problem with my playing is "that I can only play the right notes in the correct order". Every other technical aspect is wrong. Yes? I'm confident you can find thousands on youtube who fit that bill. If you can't then there'd be no point looking at a video of anyone playing until someone points it out to you. But obviously you can spot it a mile away. So if the word "you" in the rest of this post makes you think "Nah, that's not me" - fair enough, please at least try and see that there are plenty of "you"s out there who it will fit. Perhaps you had the same problem at one stage? Maybe without even being aware. So maybe as you said one day you're trying to play a Chopin etude and a guru like Alan says "Nope, you're doing that wrong...like this" and suddenly you're playing every piece you supposedly could already play differently? Does that not ring a bell? As I said, I'm sure google will find you plenty who will concur with that even if you really have never experienced it. So, perhaps up to that point you weren't as good as playing as maybe you thought? Now here's a thing, quite often you can practise a piece for hours and yet friends and family act as though you've been playing the piece for weeks, yeah? It's like they don't realise what the weeks of playing it changed? Certainly, I can find those people. If I wanted people to tell me I can play, I could simply play it to those friends or family who either can't tell good from bad or perhaps tell their family and friends what they think they want to hear. Worse, some misguided teachers believe this BSing is their role too and they'll say poor is good. Albeit they may have some justification for this, because many students seem to believe that saying something like "You're playing too fast" or "You're a useless, ugly, untalented buffoon" are saying the same thing. My family for example often tell me that I'm beating myself up over this. But, the truth is, I'm under no delusions, neither positive nor negative, about my playing ability. So what's so difficult to comprehend? The only two things where I see myself as different from thousands of other pianists who, at one time or another are really just "playing the right notes in the right order" and not getting much else right, is firstly, that many are blissfully unaware of the fact that is how they play. So they "learn" possibly hundreds of pieces in that way quite happily. A few might be luckly and find someone or something to get them past that point. The 2nd difference is that I've hit an injury, which has largely precluded me from carrying on even playing poorly without finding someone to help. But as I said, I won't focus on that injury in this post. So, for example, let me try and put it into words :- I can play C E G with the left hand, hold it for 4 beats. I can play C C G G one note per beat with the right hand. That's the first bar of a noddy version of twinkle twinkle little star. Simple, yes? Obviously I can play it. In the sense of playing those notes. But as I'm sure you're aware there's a big gap between playing the notes and playing the piece of music, even for such a simple piece. But if I play it 50 times or 500 times, each time is different. e.g Sometimes it's ooooooone two three four Another time one twwoooooooo three four In simple terms, my timing is sloppy. Rhythm and pulse are both wrong. Always. No matter that I've spent hours playing simple things with / with a metronome, counting out loud and whatever. Even a simple ONE TWO THREE FOUR, ONE TWO THREE FOUR, one note per beat piece like that. So obviously, dotted notes, 3 against 2 and whatever else in harder pieces are going to be wrong too. But on the other hand not particular more wrong. It's just that if I were trying to play a more complicated rhythm you might see that as the cause "try playing an easier piece - the rhythm in that piece is hard" - but the rhythm on the easy piece is wrong too. Is that really so unbelievable? Similarly sometimes it's ONE two three four Sometimes one TWO three four Some times ONE TWO three four Sometimes ONE TWO THREE FOUR Where CAPITALS == louder. The dynamics are wrong. False accents. Or dynamics missing and so on. More to the point I have really no idea how loud 'p' should be. Nor what 'fff' or 'mp' should sound like. I can play a note quietly, I can play one that's louder. But there's not much in between, and when I play a piece, it's pretty much random whether a note is quiet or not. A piece that has "poca a poca crescendo" or similar - there's no chance at all of me doing that. What to move or wiggle to achieve that consistenly and with control I've already pointed out in earlier posts, I've no idea. For example, Alan says if you have false accents, overhold and check for the hand dropping, perhaps when you play the thumb or cross over. Fair enough - but what about when you want an accent or when you want a note p or fff - obviously the objective with playing the piano is to have some notes louder than others. Thus one of Alan's exercises shows me how I might avoid doing that and play evenly, but I don't suppose ignoring that exercise and overholding stability is the way you're supposed to actually get accents when you need them. On the other hand, there's every chance in the world that I do that I'll play crescendo in a passage when it's not marked. Is that really so difficult to believe? Worse case trying to play comfortably changes the above. It's as I've said, trying to play so it doesn't hurt...and then you've somehow got to play loud notes / quiet notes / slow notes / fast notes / legato / staccato and so on - trying to do those seems to negate the things I did to try and play comfortably - at the same time without those things my playing sounds sloppy and poor - irrespective of the level of the piece. As I said, I don't believe one video would do justice to showing all of that - because it would just be that one time out of the 50 or 500 that are different and wrong in different ways. e.g I have had teachers where one week they'd say one thing, and the next another because each time I played them the piece different things would be wrong. They would say what they were, but I've never found the secret to learning the piece, that's to say to play, whether right or wrong just consistently. Obviously the goal would preferably be to get it consistently right rather than wrong. One other difficulty is that listening to what you're playing when you're playing it, rather than imagining what you hear. This is one cause why people can't tell the difference between bad playing and good This is probably the biggest stumbling block to getting consistent playing at the time...it means I need to record and listen back...and quite often that's a big frustration because you think you're playing well - especially if I did an hour or so without significant pain and then you realise in truth it all sounded rushed and despite the notes being right, it actually sounds terrible. On the other hand, perhaps you only struggled to believe that practise doesn't fix it...<shrug> it's the truth.

I don't know why, but since you hadn't learn to quote at that stage it's not necessarily that clear either. I made a post where I said, amongst a lot of other things, that I didn't think you believed me. You replied to that once again asking for a video and saying "I trust you micheal and you convinced me there is no doubt.It just that here in Serbia i ve never had a chance to meet a guy like you" So, the next time you ask for a video - when you say "I still don't believe..." well read it yourself. Then you can see why (a) The word "still" implies that my impression was right. You didn't appear in your posts to accept what I was saying, and you 'still' don't. But you tell me what impression you think I should get from that? I'm open for suggestions. As I say, the fact you didn't quote gives you plenty of room to claim something. I dunno, perhaps you trusted someone called Micheal, not Michael. Who, although he can't spell his name properly, he did manage to gain your trust and convince you of something completely different about another video you wanted Go ahead, be creative. Video it and I'll do a swap. But, whatever it was, I shan't sue or anything BUT haven't I been sitting here telling you how bad I am at playing? There's nothing anyone on youtube can say that I don't already know. Trust me, there's no ego here that youtube might upset. Even if they don't like the wallpaper What I do find ironic is that the usual call for video proof is to the guy that's talking UP his playing. So something has to be more wrong than a language barrier here. Perhaps some of the defensive reaction is that you think I'm farting in Alan's church for want of a better phrase? I hope that's not it, because my posts have never done anything other than give my honest opinions of it and experiences with it - and I certainly wouldn't suggest that anyone else should or shouldn't buy the DVD based on my experiences. But no matter. Whatever it is. I just went for a walk in the rain and thought about this thread and now we've established that you don't believe me, you clearly can't help unless you do... So, please, let's just look one more time in different words - because if you think about it I'm sure you'll see there's no mystery to my playing ability - and I'm sure if you haven't experienced it yourself, you can easily find plenty of examples. Let's forget the pain. If you could help with that aspect then you wouldn't need video proof and you wouldn't be suggesting that perhaps I'm wrong when I say I can't play. You aren't medically qualified and you aren't pretending to be either, and since you took offence for some reason when I jokingly suggested a thought experiement how Alan might have incorporated pain into his "walking at the piano" pieces, we didn't get very far with that... ** Michael, this thread is absurd. You have a tremendous amount of energy for drama. Take some of that energy and take a car or train ride a couple of hours away 1 day a week and see a good teacher. When you find that teacher, tell him/her you are a beginner. Then, begin as a true beginner. You've had too many teachers in too little time and seen too many videos. You've learned really bad habits. You must unlearn them. To do this, begin at the beginning. Finally, you need to check yourself out. You say no teachers are good enough and you've basically rejected the hlep people have offered here, too. You're looking for miracles and when they don't come, you lash out at people. Grow up, stop being so dramatic, and learn how to play the piano. You're so busy making noise about it and creating chaos with it that you can't even figure out what to do. You're no different from anyone else who took a few lessons and then decided he could take it from there on his own. This was a mistake but so what? People make mistakes all the time. Develop some grace, quiet down, and begin fixing your mistakes. You may be bored for 6 months but you'll learn how to play the piano properly. You state that in 3 years you have been unable to master a single piece. If you had studied with a teacher once a week for 4 years you would have mastered a number of pieces by now. Stop wasting time and begin working on getting a teacher. See a doctor about your hand. Follow the advice you are given. I won't be replying should you choose to unleash your frustrations on me as you have on others. I choose to spend my time more productively. I see this as a viable option for you, too. Best wishes, Halaluani

thank you, Halaluani, for saying in a diplomatic, sensible and straightforward way what we have all been wanting to say! I myself never waded through this whole thread but did make some attempt to make sense of it and offer some advice - however, the torrent just increased to a flood... AFF

Wow! What a strange discussion. It's not surprising that this guy is not progressing when he has such a negative attitude. Does he want to solve his problems, or does he simply want to dwell on them? If he's based anywhere near Birmingham, I'd happily give him a lesson and show him a systematic approach to practising. If he wants to get anywhere then he needs to worry more about finding a decent teacher and less time complaining about how everything is wrong. Andrew

I won't be replying should you choose to unleash your frustrations on me as you have on others. I choose to spend my time more productively. I see this as a viable option for you, too. Well some time has passed. I don't wish to carry on the debate however I think I deserve a reply given the criticisms. It's worth noting that I'd still been practising several hours a day during this thread, which, you have spent time reading and replying to yourself. Hence, your reply is hardly objective and just as emotive. The thread isn't months of continuous effort on my part instead of practise or playing. However, it still stands as fact that I have played the piano for around 5 years and made virtually no progress. During that time I did make 20 posts to this forum. Alan, that is hardly a flood, even if the posts were long. Besides, most of the posts were repeating what had already been said for your benefit. Because Alan, you asked me to repeat it. The other half were trying to get someone you have employed who does not understand English So please, Alan, if you aren't going to read a thread, keep your opinions about the posters out of it, if you do read it, be even-handed and honest about it. Thanks. Evidently you believe it's the time spent on those posts that have led to the lack of progress, however that is not the case. As for growing up, I'm more of the opinion that better advice, for someone who wants to be a pianist would be to tell them to be 6 years old again I wasn't lashing out so much as others were lashing out at me as well. Its not a one sided thread. The particular issue is that one of the posters doesn't understand English and the other has said twice that he hasn't read the thread. But yes, the thread does reflect my frustrations and experiences. It isn't saying at all that there are no teachers good enough just that I haven't found one. Indeed, if it's criticizing anything it's the DVD I paid good money for. That seems perfectly valid given the forum. As for offers of help the truth is the offers of help hadn't been produced last time I read. One offered videos of lessons and then said he needed time to post them. Fair enough. However he seemed to believe I coud produce a video instantly at his request. Similarly his offer to teach in person is clearly impractical for distance reasons, I appreciated it though and said so. It's hardly a rejection of help is it? Lastly, Alan, although he hasn't read the thread did offer to tell me of some UK teachers who might not only teach but, the key thing and the point I made, have some sympathy and knowledge for his method [perhaps even making the money I spent on the DVD not feel like it was wasted. To date, unless I'm mistaken, he hasn't mentioned them, unless I missed them? I'm certainly not rejecting that help. Anyway, as I said, I've no interest in dwelling on the actual debate here, so consider it closed.