Continuing playing Piano at older age

Dear michael, I read all of your previous posts with great interest indeed.So i 'd like to debate with you, it's just that english is not my mother tongue, but i ll do my best. Also forgive me for not quoting your text, coz it got too complicated now for me and i will definitely have to learn that. You see, i don't wanna preach you, i would just like to tell you what i think of what you wrote. When asked you if you were an amateur pianist, i actually meant, did you ever go to school and seriously studied piano? I think that is the problem with your playing.It seems that you never did or it's never been shown to you--the foundation of piano technique, which you can only get in school and continuous work with a teacher.It seems you have had so many teachers over the years, and i guess you know it's bad.Unless you are Marta or Kissin, but even they work with the only one teacher. I will tell you a story about a friend of mine who recently started working in a primary music schools.His first day on job, he got 10 7 year old kids to teach how to play piano.I was really interested how it's gonna go so i kept monitoring the whole situation.Those kids had 30 minutes lessons twice a week.That all they got. So, it's been 8 months since they all sat at he piano for the first time.And now, i can't believe what they all archived.This friend of mine,got tabula rasa students, right?The kind of work he invested<my friend> is really unique.It would take a lot of time to tell you his methods.So my point is, if they play like this after only 8 months<and lot of them don't have a piano at home>, imagine how will they play in 5 years. Once, i asked Alan"how come Kemal Gekic plays so good?Is he from another planet or what?And he said that Kemal has been so lucky to have an excellent teacher as a boy and later. So,it has to do something with a teacher for sure. So i don't know, you could find a teacher and start really form scratch, i mean really..or you could find a piece and not move along untill you master that piece to the perfection.Or at least to the point when you will be happy.When you can say"Hey it does not sound like shit now" Don't tell me you are not able to do that. As for an invite, i understand that is hard to find the money to fly to here <or in london as i think you said>and have a lesson.But it still stands. Actually, you know what you can do.Why dont you record yourseld with a camera and upload it somewhere so we can watch it>you can record only hands if you are shy. It's getting difficult to answer like this, without quoting.I am gonna learn how to do taht and finish my post. Oh yeah, i dont think this kind of tone is appropriate for this forum: Since the DVD seems to equate each aspect of piano playing to walking, how about you get Alan to kick you in the nuts and then film his dulcet Canadian tones saying "If I kick this goatee bearded buffoon that suggests pain isn't an issue in the balls, he'd walk like this. We don't want to walk like that at the peeyano" I think its obvious.Wont be tolerated any more!! See you!

You see, i don't wanna preach you, i would just like to tell you what i think of what you wrote. Sure, no worries. I don't care if you do preach. So long as what you preach is either the case or will fix the problems I'm having playing the piano. When asked you if you were an amateur pianist, i actually meant, did you ever go to school and seriously studied piano? I think that is the problem with your playing.It seems that you never did or it's never been shown to you--the foundation of piano technique Sure, I understood what you meant. Well, pedantically speaking some pretty awful pianists are professionals . Countless folk in pop and rock bands at various levels of ability, some good, some bad are too. Whereas many excellent pianists struggle to make a living or have a career. "Going to school" isn't what decides whether you are an amateur or not. Similary, being an amateur doesn't mean 'didn't go to school' but nevertheless, I understand what you mean. So, although I understood, I wanted to stress just where I am with my playing. I stress it because you appear to have some difficulty believing it. Perhaps because your experience has been different? I doubt I would get into a place of serious study for the piano in the first place. As I understand it they audition prospective students? If so, you still haven't got it yet. I can't play! Don't most learn "the foundations" years before they get to any school that will seriously study piano? I.e when they are little kids? I think you would find that a lot of places where folks study piano seriously don't cover some of these issues. The evidence I have seen for that is from some of the people that have taught in these environments, judged competitions and so on - see Peter Feuchtwanger's site for example, linked in the other thread. Equally he has a book and a DVD to sell to me which claims to work - I'm tempted to try it, but it seems very expensive and without more proof being provided that it has the secret info in it I'm not sure When he teaches personally it seems to me that he teaches people who can play the piano exceptionally well - people like Martha Argerich who are on his references page waxing lyrically about his skills. I've no doubt that he is as good as their references suggest when he teaches them, but these don't seem like references for his mail order business. That said, I think you are correct that I am missing these fundamental things but I think I knew that before you just said it. Why not make a DVD showing these foundations? If you think you have, then perhaps I need to write some of those questions I mentioned in the previous post. I've read a lot of piano literature, books, forum posts and watched a few DVDs that supposedly explained some of these foundations. At least, I thought that's what they were supposed to be doing. Are you suggesting they don't? Now of course, no book or dvd, is the same as having a good teacher there with you - but now you might see one of my points - I've been to 3 local teachers. All of them do pretty much only the following :- (a) Listen to me talking about my injuries / piano / composers / rep and so on. (b) Listen to me playing a few bits and pieces (c) Say "Ok, pick a piece you haven't played before" (d) I sit there and start to attempt to play the piece - they'll offer the odd correction for reading error or fluff I make. (e) I go home and "practise" the piece for a week, getting no better at the piece more or less once I've learnt the notes. The best pieces just sound awful. The worst leave my right arm in agony. No wonder I've got not better - because I've changed nothing about what I've done to "learn" the pieces that I already can't play well! They've offered no teaching of how to play the piano. They've not said "You're doing this, you need to do this." or anything like that. (f) repeat (d) and (e) for a few weeks. (g1) Worst : The teacher doesn't even point out how sloppy it sounds (g2) Best: The teacher does, but doesn't offer anything pragmatic to do to fix it. Somehow they believe that merely the knowledge that my playing sounds awful should be enough information for me to correct it. My experience, to date, is that it doesn't. That repeats for a few lessons, until I realise I'm wasting their time, my time and money with that teacher. Because they offer nothing at all - absolutely nothing with respect to how to sit / how to move your arms / how to stop the sound being uneven and so on and so on. Could I sit and play one piece until I've mastered it? You see that each teacher, believing in themselves always wants to start with a fresh piece. But how many years would you say for minuet in G? Be realistic. How long? Would I do it? At this point, yes. If a teacher can convince they can make progress, I will happily do nothing other than even playing cdefg let alone one piece for how ever long it takes. Indeed, as I've said, my current goal isn't playing pieces, la camp or chopin etudes? Hah. If only. Right now, it's playing anything well, without pain, even a c major scale. About 50% of the time I can only use my left hand. How many years would you estimate to teach someone that scale? If you think 'it shouldn't take years' then you see my problem, but in truth I don't think you do see my problem - I don't think you believe me. Alongside that, and in the large gaps when I've had no teacher of course I'm doing all the usual crap, adjusting bench height, trying arm weight, finger wotsits, Alan's exercises and whatever else I can find, in desperation of actually getting better. The teachers do nothing that I can't do by myself, just by opening a book of piano music and learning to play the piece. Of course, the results are poor, to say the least, learning this way. From which I conclude, correctly, that these teachers are not good teachers, at least for me. They may help kids who can't even read music - especially if those kids play notes without the same issues that I must be having or move on to a better teacher before it becomes an issue. That said, if that method above is really all there is to it. If that (a) to (g) is the method everyone who can play follows for learning to play the piano, then I can't do it. End of story, I can chuck your DVD on Ebay, recoup some of the loss, and find something else to occupy my time. Let me know. BUT, what is this you say about foundations? Well, nothing. You just say I haven't learnt them. Equally, you see, it's nowhere in their teaching what they are. Do you know these fundamentals and foundations? Can you recommend a book, DVD or teacher that shows / teaches them rather than just saying 'You haven't learnt them' - which although I appreciate isn't really a profound insight. It's not a question of having too many teachers, it's a question of not having one teacher yet. If you can recommend a way of finding a good teacher without seeing more than one teacher in the process of that search, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise your comment seems bizarre. Other than 'make sure the first teacher you visit is good' of course, which would have been nice, but wasn't the case. For me was a revelation to read some of the posts on pianostreet a few of them. I've no doubt I'll buy a few more - but is there one that explains it? Is there a person who, irrespective of them saying a book or dvd is good, their playing is good because of it? Usually we can discount the author, because they generally can play before they write a book teaching, so they didn't "eat their own dog food" in that sense, but what about advocates who just like what they read? Does that make sense? Let me expand - I've no doubt a lot who'll tell you your own DVD is good and would claim to be happy with their purchase won't actually follow it or use it or become much better or worse at playing the piano because of it. e.g Some seemed to think that I'd bought it, watched it once and then said it wasn't good before spending enough time following it to reach that conclusion. Yet there won't a single response to anyone who says it is good in the same length of time that they were speaking too early or out of turn from the DVD authors. Is that not strange? Well not that strange obviously, people don't complain about good reviews, even from bad reviewers. Nevertheless, there's a famous book that's recommended over and over again on pianostreet. But, when a thread asked who had followed it, no one had. That doesn't surprise me, because as I mentioned here, the book is incomprehensible gobbly-gook. It might be perfectly accurate, but I don't believe a single person on the planet who couldn't play learnt how to from it - no matter how much people who can play might decide the book is accurate and recommend it. If good teachers exist in the UK that know the foundations and can teach them, I've failed to find one yet Certainly not amongst my local teachers. If you needed one and found one, I think you are experiencing something that goes against the norm - even within that college or university so-called "serious study" context. Why dont you record yourseld with a camera and upload it somewhere so we can watch it>you can record only hands if you are shy. I will try and get this sorted out of interest. It's not a matter of being shy so much. I appreciate your time, but I get the impression in these threads to date that I've spent more time trying to convince you that my problems are true rather than the impression that you've read my posts and have acknowledged the problems I'm having. So that makes me cynical of what you'll say when you see a video of someone who can't play the piano. But if I can find a way I'll record something. Oh yeah, i dont think this kind of tone is appropriate for this forum: Fair enough, but please, if you're going to tell me I've been a naughty boy explain what I said that wasn't appropriate? Much better to say 'Don't call me a buffoon' or 'Thou shalt not mock Alan's DVD' or whatever you're complaining that you don't want to see? I don't expect you to send Jesus Christ to write a new book explaining what the old Ten Commandants really mean or anything, but it's difficult enough deciding what's wrong with my tone on a piano without more detail, let alone in my posts

If you posted some clips from you playing something then you could get some help,i think that a camera could be your best friend in that case.Waiting for your videos right now!I believe nothing is unsolvable if you try. Best

I ve never seen something like this before.I trust you micheal and you convinced me there is no doubt.It just that here in Serbia i ve never had a chance to meet a guy like you.The system is different here.There are virtually no "amateur' pianists here<you know what i mean>.Everybody who wants to play piano go to schools since early age.Of course parents sign those kids up in music schools and lot of them just quit at some point.But some of them continue and with them there is no screw up.There is no screw up even with those kids who quit.They all have been treated the same. So i read you posts and just can't figure out why are those things you described happen to you. The only way i could help you is to see your video. It's a different thing with Prof. Alan. HE IS THE DOCTOR FOR PIANISTS!!!! I am looking forward to your video. See ya!!

Hello all, I have been on the road for quite some time and just found this HUGE succession of posts of which I have not been aware. They are so long that I can't really wade through them all, I get lost too easily. Micheal, could you please state as succinctly as possible what the problem is? And also where you're from? I have students in various places around Britain that have worked with me long enough that they might be able to help. Also if you sent a video clip it is possible I would be able to see what the problem is. Warm regards, AFF

Hello all, Michael, could you please state as succinctly as possible what the problem is? Thanks Alan, Succinctly : Piano for me equates to severe pain, severe frustration and ultimately depression. The more I play, the more I obsess about not being able to play and the more I hate the whole process. In short, in 4 years of playing I can't play anything and I get no pleasure at all any more from any aspect of trying. The only thing keeping me playing is the equally unpleasant task of facing up to that reality and accepting the failure. But, the only sane and logical thing for me to do is to stop playing and so that's what I'm doing. Thanks for your time Alan your replies have helped me. Good luck with your own studies and playing.

Michael, I am sorry to hear about the pain problems. If you live in the London area I am pretty sure I could recommend a teacher that might help. Elsewhere in Great Britain a bit more difficult... You mentioned Peter Feuchtwanger, whose work I am familiar with. It is brilliant, but he also fails to mention certain things, like the function of the hand's arch. He does use this arch; he just doesn't talk about it. The trouble with any method is that it is open to misinterpretation. I believe it is possible to play pain-free. I have taken every step possible to rectify the possible misinterpretations found in other approaches, firstly to expand our capacity for rich-sounding, virtuosic playing and secondly to help people like yourself who could really use help and haven't found it. I am very pleased that my book and now more recently my film have helped some people in this second regard. The most gratifying account I received from a guy in Seattle who, after spending thousands of dollars with some of the biggest names in the "play pain-free" world and getting no improvement, managed to play pain-free for the first time in 7 years just from watching the demo at our site! Given that, it also must be said that every case is individual, and I myself have worked with people where we did not manage to totally solve the problem. I know your situation may feel discouraging, and yet I sense that you are really dedicated and possess not only a real love of music but an intense desire to play yourself, and not just listen. So my gut feeling is to say, "Don't give up, even though the chips are down. There's GOTTA be a way for you to play..." Best wishes, AFF

Michael, I am sorry to hear about the pain problems. If you live in the London area I am pretty sure I could recommend a teacher that might help. Elsewhere in Great Britain a bit more difficult... Indeed - the lack of teachers is something I've pointed out a few times in the previous 13 posts. Last time, IIRC, you replied telling me how good the teacher you'd found for your daughter was. Although I'm not an envious person, so I am genuinely happy for you and your daughter, perhaps you can see how that might be interpreted? "I've no money" "Well, you say that, but I've just won the lottery, so things aren't as bad as you say" This is matched somewhat in this post where you tell the guy who's already got your DVD and is in pain how good your DVD and book are, and further that there's a guy in Seattle that isn't in pain. Classic. I'm really pleased for the guy - almost as much as I was when you showed me that your 3rd finger reaches an octave I know there's no malice intended, but think about it. Clearly you honestly believe the answer to what you would call a 'pianistic' problem is your book and DVD. That comes across far more than the sentiment in the "Don't give up" bit that follows. Your attempt to motivate fails because you inadvertently point out your own and other's success. You're not saying 'Don't give up...try my new DVD with fundamentals for adults in pain" or whatever else. You're merely responding to the things I've failed to do like (a) Find a good teacher and (b) Use your DVD to either improve or lose pain - by stating that you know others that have succeeded. That simply compounds the fact that I've failed to do it. That the problem is me "Don't give up" - then what? Anyway, about the teachers. I can't be the only one that struggled to find a teacher, so why is the list secret? Are these teachers you mention struggling to find pupils? If the answers "No", and they don't want or need advertising then they are evidently fine and so disregard this. But if you know good teachers that understand movements and so on and those teachers think the kind of problems I'm experiencing and we've discussed are the sort of thing they can help with then my advice is don't tell me who they are, tell them to create a website and advertise that fact. That's to say, if I can't search and find said teacher myself, then either they have a product that no one else wants or needs or they are already overwhelmed with students or, they need to advertise it themselves. Does that make sense? I mean, I can find things like Taubman in the USA, I can find 'freeing the caged bird' and I can find your site amongst many others - but they always seem to be miles away. At the same time I can find a number of people locally who advertise with little more than the words 'piano teacher' - which tells us nothing. So if there people in the UK that do this, where are they? Don't tell me but if it really matters then get them to shout about it. But if you and they genuinely believe that these methods talking about movements matter, then why hide? Certainly advertising as 'piano teacher' is not enough. It's not just the pain. To be honest, I'd live with that if I could play - indeed, I have lived with it for years already even without being able to play. It's just pointless with no progress continuing. The biggest significance for the pain is that I thought it meant I'm doing something fundamentally wrong, yeah? At least at one time I hoped "fix the pain, fix the sound too" But you'll be aware that most method sellers will try and convince us that every concert pianist that doesn't appear to move his body in the way their method advocates are either (a) are actually moving like they say, we just didn't understand what 'handstand' meant or (b) are doing secret hidden movements that only they can see or (c) the crucial one - that he must have been hiding severe agonizing pain for their whole career, despite his superb musicality. If that really is the case, if you can play well despite the pain, then the pain would become just one of many problems rather than the root of the others as I assumed. You mentioned Peter Feuchtwanger.......The trouble with any method is that it is open to misinterpretation. Let me beg to differ. You evidently believe that you interpret it correctly, no? Then with that interpretation you didn't think "I must have misinterpreted' instead you decided why it was wrong or missing something That's one of the biggest troubles with any method - it's that lots of people have one and the others are all 'politely wrong' "His method is good but he doesn't mention dancing arms" Except for Hanon, his method is generally right or wrong without folk feeling the need to be polite about it "Hanon sucks" "No he doesn't, you suck!" <throw buns> There is more trouble. The people that seem to embrace every method that there is, even if they are clearly contradictory - the 'if you can find one or two sentences in it...' school - perhaps they are right. Reading paragraph one of your method again you'll see yet another trouble of any method is finding someone to advocate and teach it. Because there's nothing worse for anyone than "I read on the internet about his method...." - your piano teacher is either going to think it's great and already teach it or think it's wrong. As I've said most of the time your piano teacher won't have a method for arm movements...because "in 35 years of playing I've never had one, I just played" and they don't think anyone else needs one either. They may be right. perhaps I should "just play" and it's trying to play correctly that causes the pain? So there's plenty of trouble with methods. I think if there's one main trouble, it'll be "The trouble with methods is, the people who think they worked and shout about them didn't really need them in the first place, but they won't actually help those that do need them" "Don't give up, even though the chips are down. There's GOTTA be a way for you to play..." After years of playing for hours and hours - quite often from morning until night, I can't play a whole piece, nor a single note, nor a run of notes or a even bash out a few chords from a pop song. Either comfortably or pain free or musically. To the point where now I have no idea what to move to play a note - my shoulder? My elbow? My wrist, My whole arm? My fingers? Rotate my wrist? All of them? None of them? A combination? Sit high? Sit low? Sit forward? Sit further back? Lean forward? Does it "depends"? AFAICT It must be mind-numblingly complicated...I watch your DVD and as I said, I see a guy who can play piano and who is showing me some exercises without much information about what connects the exercises to his playing ability. I do try the exercises. Although I've said I'm not 100% sure whether I'm doing them correctly, I'm not getting any better. Clearly what I am doing is too complicated, yes? I don't believe everyone is sitting there worrying about every detail like this. But if I "just play" it's "just as crap, just as painful" I can watch some people and they just doodle around, perhaps with boogie woogie or whatever and they play much better than I do - there's no 'deep study on movements' there. They may go on to some serious study later. But logic suggests that a fair amount of learning to play the piano is just sitting in front of it and playing notes. Yeah? You might not get to be Horowitz that way, but just like with drawing, most of it involves looking at something and scribbling lines on a piece of paper - you can look at a drawing and say "your perspective is wrong" "the proportions are wrong" and so on...but if I was failing to draw here instead of playing the piano, there'd be no great secret as to why. Which is probably why yourself and a few others have said 'Don't give in' rather than as I said above 'Don't give in...try this" because you believe that I already have the details of what to try - and it's the same stuff that I've been doing all along...playing notes on the piano. So the penny drops, but it drops and says "If that's what there is to it, then you can't do it mate, get on with your life, this is making you ill" Or are you saying "No, hang on, you haven't tried this yet..."? That seems unlikely hence you can appreciate why I'm not going to "carry on regardless" I've asked a few times what folk think a reasonable time to play a piece like, say, minuet in G is, so far no one has answered, but if the answer was "5 years..maybe more! I know a guy in Seattle who took 30, just watching my DVD!", I might have been persuaded play for another year...but you and I both know that isn't the case. Tell the guy Seattle not to give in - because he sounds like he can play.

hmmm... I guess I DO believe in my "method" although I prefer not to even call it that. In fact, I started calling it a "method" only for marketing purposes... But I am also aware that what I do is not the answer for everybody. For instance, there are people contributing on this forum who worked with me but who did not "find the answers" with me. I have had my share of students who left because it just wasn't working... or who got worse! I hope I have learned from the mistakes I made with them. I also hope I have cured myself of the mistake of "making the other method wrong," which I did for many years. It took me a long time to figure out that these are my colleagues, that we are all devoted to music and all looking for a way to improve, and who am I to criticize what they are doing? If I disagree with certain points, I am obliged to say it, but that does not mean dismissing their work lock stock and barrel. I have to admit that I was full of myself for a long time, but when I look back, I see I was ridiculous, because I knew so little, and was so ignorant of many things that it is necessary to know... Perhaps I'm a little better now... I know that my "method" is still evolving, and actually these days I am learning more and more from my "competitors" and am very grateful for the help I am getting! So my DVD is not helping you... Sorry to hear it! To answer your question about what to move to play a note, I would move the finger, and let anything else follow along that wants to - but the movements of those other parts are ancillary - the prime movement is a movement of the finger. best wishes, AFF

I think your DVD would have been better entitled 'A few tricks and tips for advanced students' with blurb that pretty much said what you said to me in the other thread, that you were showing a few things that students you have had over x years have had problems with and these exercises have helped. To be honest calling it a 'method' is hardly marketing. If I were pissed about buying your DVD based upon what I read in "marketing" the biggest culprit would be because of it's grandiose and all-encompassing title 'THE Craft of piano playing' But I'm not that pissed - only because it's yet another thing that didn't work, but I'm fairly sure that the thing that doesn't work is two-fold (a) Me (b) Not having a decent teacher. How much (b) would have influenced (a) is an exercise. So I wouldn't sweat it. I don't think a DVD or a book will help anyone that much and that's from real practical experience of buying them and using them, not from learning to play the piano . Also from seeing that a lot of people who buy books and say how good they are, but who are really already in the choir, with a teacher and so on. e.g I think the guy in Seattle who watched the demo sounds a little like those fans of Uri Geller who say their clocks started and their cancer disappeared during his show You need a teacher physically present. Period. And as I've said at least twice now, unless that teacher advocates a particular method then a DVD showing a different method probably won't help much, if it's required at all. The best argument is perhaps that a few teachers watch it and then, if they think it's right, teach it. Note It doesn't matter if you say 'such and such is wrong' itself. What matters is that if I have to sit in front of a piano and have a teacher by the side or a DVD say 'do this...don't do that...' - just like the mpeg that was posted on this forum of you teaching that kid. That's where teachers dismiss the other methods. There's no cure for that, but why would you want one? To answer your question about what to move to play a note, I would move the finger, and let anything else follow along that wants to - but the movements of those other parts are ancillary - the prime movement is a movement of the finger. Ok, but without sweating it too much...you see my point how what you've just said doesn't being to answer the questions. In what manner do I move my finger? Lift it and drop it? Move it towards the hand? What about all that guff about rotation to lift the 4th finger? Let's say the repeated chords in Chopin's E minor prelude, I can't imagine how to move my fingers and let the rest follow to play those, surely I have to lift the hand . Whooosh straight over my head. How did that work? Was David Blaine involved? As I said to your friend I could ask quite literally hundreds and hundreds of questions about any particular aspect. Because I am at a complete loss as to how to play. "just doing it" has possibly led to my arm being permanently injured - because now my arm hurts whatever activity I do. Plenty of methods have you use the arm perhaps with rotation to do that. Indeed saying 'use your finger' has pretty much dismissed a fair %age of your own DVD hasn't it? As well as a bunch of alternative methods. You don't have to say they are bad. But, why wouldn't you? From a student perspective you might see how if I politely accept all possible methods and see them all as written by a group of colleagues each to be respected and learn from blah blah blah. Then, when I'm really struggling to play I'm just even more confused. Are they saying the same thing, different way...are they contradictory or are they several separate parts of a whole? I could probably live with doing your don't-call-it-a-method-that's-marchitecture thing incorrectly, and think 'Maybe one day, if I keep trying, I may do it right and it'll all come together' - but polite schmite, we actually have to live with the idea that all these contradictory and confusing methods are all possibilities. That's to cure you from the possibility that you might be right and someone else not? Do you really care? Sod that. No. That just makes it more difficult. It's already too difficult. I wanna know how to play the piano. If Hanon's gonna cry, let him. Please someone tell us. I want a teacher who is going to say 'Do this' and then if and when I do it and it works I can worry about him curing himself by being polite to other folks with different methods