Between The Thumb, 2nd And The 5th

On and off, I've been experimenting with Chopin's Etude op.10 no.5. The major hurdle for me to get the brilliant sound, is the connection of G flat (4th finger) to D flat all the way to the B flat right before the second bar. The finger I use is 4-2-4-1-5-2. Two problems here: in order to play the 4-2-4 brilliantly, I set my wrist low, keep the arch and "stand my hand up", and align more towards the 5th finger. The fingers can just fall in loosely and.... it sounds right! But the thumb, being short and high to reach the black key, then finds it a bit sluggish to play in such a position. In playing, a relatively "cramped" sound results...... The second problem is in the 5-2 connection. Despite my medium-large hands (reaching a 10th and stretching a 11th), that's a large interval. After experimenting a bit, I decided not to stretch, but rather to maintain the arch at the knuckles to give me the brilliant sound. But the paradox is: if I simply move the hand sideway without rotation, the finger doesn't feel well supported enough. Not to mention the sideway motion is not well directed by the touch and feedback from the finger. (the 5th finger seemingly has to extend away from the hand a bit while the hand is travelling out, so my hand can still feel the connection before the 2nd finger plays) If I rotate, the rotation which gives color and aids the second finger simply shorten the distance it can reach! I can now play quite fast, but it just doesn't feel right. There's still much more to explore.......can Alan or someone share some experience here?? I think 5-2 connection is one of the things that comes up very often, a dilemma in leaping among the fingers (rather than the thumb, which has been discussed many times)

Have you tried to study it slow with extreme flat fingers?It may seem strange but i did it a long time ago,and it worked for me.If you watch this video (although i make plenty of mistakes),after the half i play it at a good speed with good tone.I think that while it is extreme in any case it helps build good sound. PS:Watch it after the half time because then i try to play it fast. EDITED BY ME :It's not good perfomance and nothing like good tone.It;s just an experiment i did,nothing more.

Hi, The extreme flat finger approach I beleive is a good exercise.It enlightens the necessary rotation and very active wrist movements. Although as I can see Nikodr's wrist is pretty stiff I'd use the wrist more like Nikodr flex his knuckles. Overholding (keeping the wrist always "very light" is instructive for this etude it's really just a question of a couple of handpositions and once you get that this etude becomes ducksoap. Which one can't say about most of the other ones. I think Nikodr needs more arch in the right hand like the fine arch he has in the left hand when playing at near full speed. Rythmization in full-speed is really helpful- as always. Eric

Hi eric!Thanks for your comment. Truth is i collapsed my arch on purpose.If you observe the knuckles (especially at the metacarpals) you will see that there is still some inner action that is not visible always. I always pay strong attention to have a solid arch and seldom i allow it to collapse. As for the wrist i have to assume you,it's not rigid although it may seem like that at times. Reason for this exercise for me was to enlighten and provide more means for me to play this etude.I was not really happy with the general hand position at the keyboard.It offered very little sound.Actually if you take a look at where the finger touch the keys it is most of the times in the end of the second phalange that is in the middle of the finger,i wanted to mainted that feeling and move on. I suspect there is no reason to try to play something always that way.I am always looking for new ways to enrich my technique.The more tools one could have at his disposal the better Regarding the arch of the left hand it is not good.It is semi collapsed.When the right hand is so extreme flatted there was no way for my left hand to be natural.The chords too do not help to mainten a very flat position there.It needs more refinement (although this video is very old).I want to record a new one and post. I wanted to see wether it is possible to perform in that way. Under no way i claim that it is perfect.I make many mistakes,and these could be wrong,and i am not a professional pianist and professor like Mr Fraser. However i wanted to share my "discovery". Kind regards

Hi Nikodr! I was obviously to quick to comment not easy to actually see how supple a wrist is.That's the problem all movements in pianoplaying are so subtle that you don't see them. I liked your exercise did something similar myself long time ago and it was the solution for me than. With a smaller hand (unlike yours and mine) I guess the approach should be different. About the arch I'm not so sure that it has to be that big even a small arch is an arch. And I really liked the way your left sounds and moves. It looks like efficient "grasping" to. There is a funny video on youtube "major f-ups in competitions" with this etude. Best regards Eric

Hi eric!Thanks for your comment. Truth is i collapsed my arch on purpose.If you observe the knuckles (especially at the metacarpals) you will see that there is still some inner action that is not visible always. I always pay strong attention to have a solid arch and seldom i allow it to collapse. As for the wrist i have to assume you,it's not rigid although it may seem like that at times. Reason for this exercise for me was to enlighten and provide more means for me to play this etude.I was not really happy with the general hand position at the keyboard.It offered very little sound.Actually if you take a look at where the finger touch the keys it is most of the times in the end of the second phalange that is in the middle of the finger,i wanted to mainted that feeling and move on. I suspect there is no reason to try to play something always that way.I am always looking for new ways to enrich my technique.The more tools one could have at his disposal the better Regarding the arch of the left hand it is not good.It is semi collapsed.When the right hand is so extreme flatted there was no way for my left hand to be natural.The chords too do not help to mainten a very flat position there.It needs more refinement (although this video is very old).I want to record a new one and post. I wanted to see wether it is possible to perform in that way. Under no way i claim that it is perfect.I make many mistakes,and these could be wrong,and i am not a professional pianist and professor like Mr Fraser. However i wanted to share my "discovery". Kind regards No offence intended, but I rather fear that you're on the wrong track with your flat finger experiments. Although we can't see your thumb from the side that was filmed, I'm quite certain that you have completely thrown out the concept of 'grasping' and simply weakened the whole structure of your hand. If something works then it works, but I can both hear and see a great deal of clenching that interferes with the continuity. While I hate to sound damning, I really doubt that you'll ever reach comfort or full speed, if you carry on that way. You may think that you are relaxed enough in the wrist, but I can both hear and see that you physically clenching in an unhealthy way that is severely impeding the individuality of the fingers and the flow of movements. There are many occassions when the muscles are locking in a way that basically 'fuses' the muscles of the forearm in uncontrolled tension and hampers the following finger strikes. You can often hear the resulting loss of control. Look at Rubinstein gliding over the keys in the same study. That simply isn't going to happen, unless you find more stable support first- without need to stabilise with heavy forearm tensions for even an instant. Horowitz played with flattish fingers, but you really need to observe how his knuckles still support (they may not have a hugely pronounced arch, but I have NEVER seen him actively reverse the inverted v shape into a downward v, as you are frequently doing) and how he balances his hands without locking the forearm. Above all, look at the width of the space between 1 and 2 as he grasp (pushing his 2nd finger knuckle up very notably)- no matter how flat his fingers go. The way you are depressing your knuckles so forcefully at times is not merely the absence of a supportive arch but the very antithesis, to my eyes. Having had virtually zero finger technique for years, I can see and hear many of the same problems that have held me back for ages. I'm still not at the point where this study has become entirely comfortable, but I can see the exact same things that always prevented my technique from progressing. You're simply not adequately balanced on every individual finger. I'd advise seriously slow practise with proper grip at the fingertips, in which you seek to find a stable position on each finger. At the moment, your position is frequently unbalanced- in a way that demands counterproductive tensions to hold it together. If you didn't flatten so forcibly, you'd have a far easier time of it. Sorry if this sounds very negative, but I really think that you need to rethink your flat fingered approach. In that film you are simply robbing your hand of its structure- in a drastically different way to a Horowitz or a Gould. In the simplest way possible, the thing that has helped me the most with this study is to overhold many notes and feel that the fingers grasps each note INWARDS. This may still leave a virtually flat finger (of the kind seen from Horowitz) when felt from the very tip of each finger but I believe that you are doing something entirely different. At the moment, you are often actively pushing your knuckles down and forcing your hand outwards, rather than gripping into a position of true, sustainable balance. I honestly think that this is a huge mistake, if you are seeking to make long-term progress. Andrew PS. Alan mentions in the book that straight fingers are not the hands natural position. Someone once showed me an exercise where you clench your fist very tightly for a few seconds and then release. You then allow the fingers to uncurl slowly by themselves- with no willful straightening. After thirty seconds or so, the neutral position that my fingers flatten into is far closer to Horowitz's standard 'flat' finger than to your willfully straightened fingers. I'm not saying that there's never a reason to willfully, straighten the finger, but I'd really advise thinking about the shape of a neutral flattened finger, before you start trying to play that study with such forcefully flattened fingers.

I hope the extreme flat finger approach was just an exercise. It's a very good thing to experiment but at the same time you have to be careful not to program the "neuromotor" with anything that stiffens up the wrist and underarm. It will backfire at precisely the wrong occasion! However going (quickly) from this position to a grasping position like Alan does in the octavsection might be a good thing. Horowitz often talked about his "pinky" as a guide and in this etude the 5th is really dictating the position of everything else. Unlike Rubinstein who's 5th had about the same lenght as his 4th (lucky guy) most of us have to compensate for this in some way. Eric

I hope the extreme flat finger approach was just an exercise. It's a very good thing to experiment but at the same time you have to be careful not to program the "neuromotor" with anything that stiffens up the wrist and underarm. It will backfire at precisely the wrong occasion! However going (quickly) from this position to a grasping position like Alan does in the octavsection might be a good thing. Horowitz often talked about his "pinky" as a guide and in this etude the 5th is really dictating the position of everything else. Unlike Rubinstein who's 5th had about the same lenght as his 4th (lucky guy) most of us have to compensate for this in some way. Eric Well, I think it's good to experiment with different things, but I'm not convinced that going about it with forcibly depressed knuckles would ever be terribly healthy. Such a position limits the movement of the fingers and also the sensory awareness of the movements. I'm not saying that there are never any uses to practising with very flat-fingers, but I think that such an exercise would be vastly more productive in a neutral and relaxed flat-fingered position. Above all though, the concern is when he plays fast but with extreme tensions. Even if there are potential benefits from the slow work, I think it's safe to say that trying to force the notes out in that way is never going to provide anything constructive. It's vital to find proper balance, before speeding up. Compensating for a lack of grip and balance at the fingertip by locking up various muscles around the palm and in the forearms is one of the most counterproductive things that can be done either in practise or performance. That kind of thing held me back for years. At the moment, I'm very deliberately trying to avoid much in the way of full-speed practise on Etudes. However, it's amazing how much easier it feels, after you have spent plenty of time walking very slowly from finger to finger and on overholding etc. I think that for anyone who has such problems at speed, it really is vital to identify and smooth over the physical gaps, before making any efforts to go at speed. While I don't wish to sound rude towards the poster, there are a great many of them in that rendition (both in the slow practise and the faster rendition). Overholding would easily fix this.

Having practiced for years and having done a lot of experiments i have to say some things. This was just an experiment.Nothing revolutionary,not something that someone should try to do in performance speed. I always try to have a proper arch,and having bought alan's book and dvd i can safely say that i try to grasp,and if you read earlier posts of mine you will see of my experiments with the interroseus and lumbricals muscles regarding the structure of the hand,and how beneficial it is to have a proper arch. I dont play every day scales with collapsed arch.And almost nothing of my repertoire actually!Only this etude for experiment. Regarding the arch it may look 100% collapsed but i dont think it is not.If you look closely at the top knuckles of the fingers you will see that they are still over the hill in the sense that the top knuckle is still my arch point of stabilization and control.I wanted to practice the muscles that move the finger as a whole unit.And i never said that someone should try to do this in performance,only in slow practice! The film has 2 parts.Let's only keep the first half.I just wanted to play and see if it would be possible to play fast in that way. I can upload a new video with me performing that etude in the "normal way".I play most of the times with natural hand position,this was just an experiment. I think that it is beneficial to try to do things in a different way. I never said that my performance has anything to do with Rubinstein or Horowitz for God's sake. These are legendary pianists that the whole world knows and accepts as the genius masters of piano.Who am i to even say that i could perform even a fraction of this etude like them? I am not like them and probably wont become like them in that life of mine. I am a pianist that just practices and often does experiments,(like the one i told you about the arch,regarding the interroseus and lumbrical musles of the hand,i have spent days and weeks trying to isolate the feeling of these muscles.). But when you know what you are doing you can do what you want.In that sense i noticed that i knew some things about the arch,and tried to forget all i knew and tried to do the opposite.But i always knew "You are collapsing your arch!You are doing it in purpose,you have concious control over the collapsement because you are the one doing it".Many people that have collapsed arches do not know about it! Since i know that this is not standar and i am always ready to monitor for pain and something wrong in slow practice i think i may not have a problem with that. Kind regards Nikos

Having practiced for years and having done a lot of experiments i have to say some things. This was just an experiment.Nothing revolutionary,not something that someone should try to do in performance speed. I always try to have a proper arch,and having bought alan's book and dvd i can safely say that i try to grasp,and if you read earlier posts of mine you will see of my experiments with the interroseus and lumbricals muscles regarding the structure of the hand,and how beneficial it is to have a proper arch. I dont play every day scales with collapsed arch.And almost nothing of my repertoire actually!Only this etude for experiment. Regarding the arch it may look 100% collapsed but i dont think it is not.If you look closely at the top knuckles of the fingers you will see that they are still over the hill in the sense that the top knuckle is still my arch point of stabilization and control.I wanted to practice the muscles that move the finger as a whole unit.And i never said that someone should try to do this in performance,only in slow practice! The film has 2 parts.Let's only keep the first half.I just wanted to play and see if it would be possible to play fast in that way. I can upload a new video with me performing that etude in the "normal way".I play most of the times with natural hand position,this was just an experiment. I think that it is beneficial to try to do things in a different way. I never said that my performance has anything to do with Rubinstein or Horowitz for God's sake. These are legendary pianists that the whole world knows and accepts as the genius masters of piano.Who am i to even say that i could perform even a fraction of this etude like them? I am not like them and probably wont become like them in that life of mine. I am a pianist that just practices and often does experiments,(like the one i told you about the arch,regarding the interroseus and lumbrical musles of the hand,i have spent days and weeks trying to isolate the feeling of these muscles.). But when you know what you are doing you can do what you want.In that sense i noticed that i knew some things about the arch,and tried to forget all i knew and tried to do the opposite.But i always knew "You are collapsing your arch!You are doing it in purpose,you have concious control over the collapsement because you are the one doing it".Many people that have collapsed arches do not know about it! Since i know that this is not standar and i am always ready to monitor for pain and something wrong in slow practice i think i may not have a problem with that. Kind regards Nikos No offence, but your slow practise demonstrates that your collapsed arch is not providing adequte function, regardless of whether you intend it to be collapsed. Until I went slowly and with exaggerated grip- concentrating on completely stable transfers from finger to finger, I didn't realise just how many gaps and inconsistencies there were in the movements. When I played fast, there were constant places where I had to clench slightly, as you are, in order to compensate. I'm not a Horowitz or Rubinstein, any more than you are, but I must seriously warn you that the way you are going about that practise could be a lot healthier if you wish to make progress. The faster rendition is simply exaggerating the holes that also appear in the slower work. You can both see and hear a great deal of inconsistency in the quality of the balance. There is sometimes a certain amount of an arch, but there are times when you are can see the knuckles being pushed into the very opposite of an arch- notably at the point where you start raising the wrist. You suggested this way of practising and said it 'worked' for you, but specifically what benefits were intended from this and in what way did it help? Sorry if I sound damning, as this is really not my intention. I'm just honestly warning you that I strongly feel that you might be experimenting with dangerously counterproductive ideas, without having yet given your hand the basic foundations for the study. The sheer levels of clenching involved there caused rather major alarm bells to ring. Experiment or not, that level of clenching- in an effort to force notes out is never a good thing. The reasons why that tension was required are as evident from the lack of stability in the slower playing as when you went faster. Although I do believe in uses of flat-fingered practise, I think it's vital to learn to balance and 'walk' consistently before experimenting. As I think Alan states in the book, in order to successful emulate the way Horowitz moves, you have understand the internal functions behind it- not just the immediate exterior. Andrew PS. It would be interesting to see you play it normally. I fear that the physical holes that are demonstrated there would still be evident- although perhaps I'm mistaken.