Just realised that I hadn't replied to these bits before:
This is exactly where I think objective understanding is so important. It's what can help ensure teachers don't just teach a stock lesson regardless of context. Also, I wouldn't be so sure regarding the strong hands. I see countless students with strong hands who collapse them weakly and am still having to work to get my own hands interacting properly with the keys. I think there are actually very few pianists who can afford to forget the arch. Even at high levels, you see countless collapses and needless stiffnesses instead of simpler and more productive movements.
So why not carry on trying to complete it- and to refine it to the most important issues?
It's definitely weight. If I compare having the arm an inch above the keys to resting the finger lightly on the key surface, I can feel subtle but definite support. My arm works less hard to keep itself from falling down. It's VERY small indeed, in terms of how much weight is resting without depressing the key- but it's weight alright. I prefer the idea of learning to discriminate this tiny but useful sense of resting before the key moves (creating less than 50g of pressure against the key) to the idea of either feeling that weight bears down during key movement or not thinking of weight at all. Personally, I look at it more as a means of reducing weight to the absolute bare minimimum level at which fingers can function properly- rather than as any kind of weight-based approach. This is more a means of controlling and stripping away unwanted weight- but without throwing out the baby with the bathwater and ending up with a totally disconnected arm.
Also, do post the exercises you mentioned sometime. I'm definitely interested in hearing more.
To be honest, I'm finding it to be a little more than that. There's a very literal feeling of the finger interacting with the keys before sounding them, even in faster playing. In slow practise, sometimes I'm "going around the block" slightly- and taking an excessively time consuming path to find that poised position. However, getting into that preparatory interaction with the key's resistance is definitely something that can be carried over quite literally into everyday playing. As Eric says, it's especially with the 4th and 5th. It makes relatively small differences with other fingers, but truly substantial differences to the simplicity with which 4 and 5 go on to produce sound. It's especially significant for op. 10 no 1 and 2.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to denigrate what you are saying in this topic. I think I misunderstood what "little exercise" Eric was talking about. I thought Eric was talking about one of the exercises for 4 and 5 in one of the topics that were on this board in the past. You didn't label what you describe in the first post as an "exercise". I still think that for the "Russian" school, this is the standard position, the standard "feel". For training purposes, however, they do everything in reverse. They start with maximum weight load (the bridge hanging exercise), gradually taking away the weight off the fingers, and what you describe is what one is left with; the standard "feel" of "just enough". Did you have a chance to watch Nikolsky in my topic on the master video forum? Unfortunately, YouTube removed Gilels' performance of Mozart's Fantasy in Re minor, a very useful clip in this respect.
P.S.: To "free up" 4 and 5 it is probably worth mentioning that one should not slant in the direction of the pinky, but instead put the hand a little in pronation? With a little training, it becomes then rather convenient to "racewalk" on 4 and 5, even a tempo in op. 10 no 2.
Paul
Separate post. My exercises are usually related to:
1) letting go of the body, letting go of the wish to control tone production
2) using the keyboard as a trampoline
Movement causes certain mechanical reactions. One has a choice:
1) fight those reactions (bad option, which leads to injuries)
2) avoid those reactions for better control (something you seem to do)
3) use those reactions to one's benefit
The third variant is my favorite. I like to use my movements (basically fingers and hands as moving entities only) as movements of a basketball. Deliberate use of weight is absent. What I do is very much what the "old finger school" propagates with the difference that I don't hit or aim down; everything is "up". Lift, drop, lift drop. No brute force; just flexible swing and bounce. The drop of one finger causes the lifting of another. The key you come down on directs you to the following, and if you don't interfere, there is no conflict and you land where you have to be next, etc. No deliberate control over tone production, but still a very clear artistic sound image to listen for.
P.S.: Of course, since most of my students are already advanced, I don't make deliberate attempts to change their technique. I just use elements that teach them to let go in a Zen fashion, to resolve their inner conflicts, etc. "Do you really need that kind of force, "weight", etc.?" is probably the most frequently asked question. Also, the dumb keyboard is one of my favorite teaching devices.
Paul
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to denigrate what you are saying in this topic. I think I misunderstood what "little exercise" Eric was talking about. I thought Eric was talking about one of the exercises for 4 and 5 in one of the topics that were on this board in the past. You didn't label what you describe in the first post as an "exercise".
Sure, I see where you're coming from.
Yeah, looks pretty good to me. The above definitely makes sense. My stance is basically that it should be clear what a weight approach is building up- specifically the extension action of the fingers that serves to balance it out. When that's clear to a student, there's much less danger that the weight ends up collapsing the fingers- rather than aiding their training in positive movements. I'm not as much against weight ideals as Alan (although my own approach is definitely not based on arm-weight ideals) but I think it will almost always be more effective when there is some basic understanding of what it must objectively trigger in the fingers, for it to work.
Yeah- agreed. I find it's good to do a lot of work with rotation in opposite directions- sometimes to align the 5th to the path of the key better and sometimes to rock slightly out onto it. I think the latter is harmful if you don't spend plenty of time on the former. That said, sometimes when I've been pronating, I feel that I have ended up disconnecting the finger's movement from the arm too much. This thing of resting slight weight on the key surface is perfect for ensuring that the finger's movement comes from a productive starting position. Without clear enough contact to be begin with, I was sometime starting with a high knuckle but having it collapse down. If it's already started being lightly pushed up by contact with the key surface (rather than held up over it), you're in the ideal position in all respects.
Separate post. My exercises are usually related to:
1) letting go of the body, letting go of the wish to control tone production
2) using the keyboard as a trampoline
Movement causes certain mechanical reactions. One has a choice:
1) fight those reactions (bad option, which leads to injuries)
2) avoid those reactions for better control (something you seem to do)
3) use those reactions to one's benefit
Sounds very similar to how I'm looking at it myself. I'd just say that I'm not sure there's such a big distinction between nos 2 and 3 (except perhaps in mid-speed octaves- where it can be useful to be bounced slightly away between sounds). Also, I wouldn't say "avoid" reactions so much as think of finding a movement where the reaction have the least effect on the passive arm (although this is really just a small linguistic detail, of course).
The way I think of it is that reactions should initially be observed and allowed to do whatever they choose. Only when you have accepted reactions do you go on to try to absorb them. I think the key is to get reactions almost perfectly upwards (but perhaps pushing you slightly back away from the keyboard- rather than dragging you slightly towards it). From here, letting go of the arm a fraction more (rather being as light as when you allow the reactions to affect it very easily) can end up absorbing the reactions in a way that is totally different from fighting them with stiffness.
The drop of one finger causes the lifting of another.
This is an interesting one. I think I can feel what you mean. I can't quite perceive whether the reaction has a small literal effect of helping the next finger to lift, or whether it's just an imaginary aid- but I do like it, either way.
Yeah, I can see how it would be good. I don't think the keyboard necessarily has to be silent, but I think it's essential to be able to step back and stop trying to achieve particular intentions in sound- but to instead observe what sound results from good quality movements (which is what would happen when they return to a real piano). I'm certain that all pianists who think intention must come first had actually been through this stage of observing and associating cause and effect first. Having a strong intention in sound inevitably brings in habits, that can interfere with the possibility of learning a simpler and more effective movement.
Exactly right. One of my other favorite workout exercises that changed the world for many who had never moved in such a way before is the whole-finger slap (from the knuckle), but in a special fashion. Grab a hardcover book, not too thick (max. 2 inches) so that its spine conveniently fits between your thumb and the four fingers (thumb under, fingers on top, spine of the book against the skin under the knuckles). Find a convenient position to sit, for example in your armchair, so that you can support the weight of the book with your thighs or knees. The position of the book is not important; it should be convenient to hold it lightly in your hand as support, but its weight should lie on some surface. Now slap your fingers against the hard cover one by one. This is nothing forceful; just correctly timed. Don't rush; the sound of the slap is the most important. Also note that your finger has no choice but to move correctly from the knuckle; all knuckles are pronounced because you hold the book. As soon as you master this, alternate with different fingers on the cover of the book until you can "play" a whole-finger-slap trill. 3-2 (2-3), 2-5 (5-2) etc. is easy; 4-5 (5-4) presents a serious challenge, especially at the speed of a real trill. Avoid abnormal tension anywhere. After you have done this for some time, collapsing knuckles will be a thing of the past.
Paul
That was a clever way to feel the lumbricals the pupil doesn't have a choice...
I see that Paul mention the size of the hand that is limiting TN:s possibilities. Frankly in her case I think it's her obesity if I may say so.If Hoffman managed anyone should manage. She must have been remarkable in her younger days.
However talking about the size of the hand is something I think is totally missing in most teachings.I'm convinced that many pianists have a poor technique because they don't adapt the technique to the limitations of their anatomy which is given. Something I found out myself when I restarted to play after 15 years abscence. As a kid and teenager I had a big hand but thin fingers.My technique then worked very good. Now with larger fingers and a bigger and stiffer hand using the same technique (almost pure fingerplaying) is inhibating. Paradoxally reading threads about "armweight" on this forum persuaded me to use body/ hand/ wrist -what movements what I would call "cheating" and that has improved my technique tremendously. The sound has changed and I don't (unfortunately) play in crazy speedy tempi which I liked. But I know that I use my hand as effeciently as I can I play more "Arrau-like-boring" but feel comfortable.
I've found lots of tips in Alans litterature to use my hand better (eg like mashing the palm of the hand a bit which really gives my relatively stiff third into good work. But nowhere I see any categorizing of the anatomy of hands.
Same goes for the complete body-anatomy.A short person, a person with relatively short overarm etc. Those things matter enormously. I would guess that relatively speeking Horowitz is not sitting so much lower than the standard position. If you look at the relations height length of overarm etc.
As the anatomy changes the technique has to follow. And when you get older I'd say using some Taubman (and loosing some of your sound) might be a clever option.
Would appreciate a comment:-)
I think Hoffman did a crazy amount of stretching, and so did DeLarrocha; not to make their hands bigger, but for sheer power within the range they had, mainly between the fingers. Nikolaeva did not so much in that direction; I think this partly explains the difference of result in the sounds they produce. Even if you have not-so-big hands, you need a VERY strong mechanism to play the big concert repertoire, strength (= reserve stretch) within your range of movement that is; not to hit the keys with strength from the fingers, but to bear the sheer stress of purely mechanical stuff, especially if your concert schedule is overloaded. It's mostly the people who don't have that reserve power (= reserves in stretch) that start pushing from the arms.
Strength in a pianist's mechanim was something Hoffman surely admired. He is reported to have said about Rachmaninov: "A man with a heart of gold and arms of steel". I've always wondered why he said "arms", not "hands" but then, the Russian word "ruka" denotes the same for both.
Some 25 years ago, when I was still in my martial arts ". Hope I described the image well. This made my hands VERY strong. I did this because at that time I was a bouncer in a night club. Beating troublemakers up could get you in jail very easily, so my favorite move was to just stick out my urangutan-like long arms and put my paw in their faces in a claw position.
The pleasant side-effect was them to brace, to fixate and to clench). The result was that Barbara Grajewska (Rotterdam Conservatory) exclaimed that if she had my physique, she would probably break the instrument in two.
I would also add that the smaller your hands are, the better pianist you have to be to take the Romantic concert repertoire in public and still bring the hall down.
If you can put the "Arrau-like-boring" (not just empty glittering octaves on the climax, but the fear of "Oh my God, Leander isn't going to make it; he's drowning!" - 7:01 - 8:00), and Hero's genuine sorrow when she realizes what has happened (10:18 and on), finally throwing herself into the sea (her drowning symbolized by all those scales overflowing her theme), then you are certainly one of my favorite pianists! By the way, even with Arrau's rather heavy weight playing technique, you need incredibly strong fingers. He said that himself somewhere in an interview. He also used to throw medicine balls around to keep fit.
Matthay that is. Taubman in the Golandsky version is too religious. The ideas are from Matthay and forearm rotation is really a powerful tool in any pianist's arsenal.
P.S.: I would also like to add that it seems to me Mozart and Scarlatti are very difficult if you have huge hands.
Paul
Arrau was a bad example-english is not my native language. And you're right playing like him demands perhaps more strength having a longer sustain.Virtuosity can be a means of hiding weakness.
I did some boxing in my younger years I was really dedicated for some years and everybody, my teacher included, told me I ruined my piano. I still don't know if I did that.Some pianists I know don't want to carry whatever.
Especially Scarlatti is difficult with big hands. It's more mass to move and to keep warm. I still use the old Phillippe exercises I did as a young man. They kind of loosen up a strong hand.
I'm sure you didn't. Teachers just have the preconceived idea that martial arts and piano playing don't go together. Of course, the value of boxing is not to beat up the piano afterwards . First of all, you form the structure of your hands by soft conditioning of the knuckles. Second, you learn how to move efficiently. Third, your reaction gets sharpened, which is very, very important in piano playing. Another good sport for moving and reaction would be tennis. Afterwards, when you get back to your piano, the first thing to do is to "weigh" the keys slowly with your fingertips, pianissimo, or lift your fingers and let them drop. No physical force at all.
I don't have trouble with keeping the mass warm. I just have a feeling that with my rather broad palms my fingers don't fit well into all those "narrow" passages, and the trouble with those composers is that if you drop even one single note in their music, the whole house of cards falls, something that will be noticed by even an untrained audience.
P.S.: Phillippe is excellent practice if you have the hands for it and if you know how to move without injuring yourself.
Paul
