Trilling Thirds

Hi Ive been reading chapters on the interdependance of thumb and fingers and in particular in the "honing the pianstic..." 42.3 I think it was - the chapter on moving pylons and stability without going down to the keybed. I wanted to master the trilling thirds in the Chopin Barcarolle and the 25.6 Study. I know that to get this effect it needs a flutter which seems to me to slightly rotate (if thats the word) up and down from the forearm/wrist. On a 2/3 5/1 fingering trill in the Barcarolle this is much easier to do but the 2/4 5/1 is difficult to flutter as the 4th and 5th finger trill seem to go down at same time. The study in thirds has a similar fingering. What is the best way to practice the interdependence of the 4th/5th trilling fingers so that when up to speed I can resume the flutter technique? Here's what I've been trying since I wrote the above (op25.6 - opening trill): My most successful approach was to rotate the 1/5 fingers with loose wrist/forearm. When I trill just on 4/2 I'm light and can go on for a long time - I hardly feel whats happening its just a light tapping on the the keys. So I tried to concentrate on the 1/5 and not think about the 2/4 - Its the only way I could think of keeping the arch and to get a little speed. Getting this up to proper tempo is a problem though as the fingers seem to loose their way. Barcarolle trill bar 23: This has a different position and the 4th and fifth fingers seem tighter together because of the d-d#. If I concentrate on the 1/2 trill (actually is there a misprint in all the editions because the trill begins 5/1 4/2 as if d(5) and c#(1) to d#(5) b (2) which doesnt feel right and trills post Baroque "normally" starts on the written note not the note above the written note). Anyway I reverse this fingering to 4 on the d and 2 on the c# and thumb on b and 5 on d#. The next trill (b.24) 51 53 is much easier and I can get this flutter up to speed because the 2&3 on a#/c# can be thought of as not a trill but a minor 3rd alternating with the maj3rd (b/d#). I realise there have been posts on trills but I have thought about this and I'm trying to work out my skeletal organisation but just wanted some response on what I'm doing and what I might be doing wrong. Many Thanks

Following on from the Barcarolle trill I decided to go back to pylons and tai-chi walking. Very slowly I play the d/a# (4/2) then come down with the 51 on b/d# but not lifting the 42 yet. Then I shift a little weight (lean) on to the 51 before lifting. This is quite difficult for my brain to work out which fingers to lift at first. But its the kind of excersise I created away from the piano (on a book actually) and then could transf it back to the piano later. This is giving me some definition between trilling even if its not up to speed. I want it to be second nature that my brain knows which muscles to help lift the right fingers naturally. But there is still a kind of rotation with the 5/1 fingers which I'm hoping when up to speed is the thing I can focus on while everything else goes on peripherally.

Thanks for your question, another tough one to answer in a forum! My gut instinct is to send you in a completely other direction, and postulate that the real problem in your trill is between 1 & 2, not between 4 & 5. I would take any of those double thirds trills and only practice the lower notes, going through ALL the stuff I write about the thumb in Honing. That should transform that part of your hand so completely that it now looks and feels utterly different from before, and offers such a wonderful, functional support to the outside of your hand that trilling between 4 & 5 ceases to be any problem whatsoever... Lately I've gone back to a similar problem, the double thirds in the coda of the 4th Ballade, and working this way has given me a new sense of authority in the passage... AFF

Thanks Alan for your reply I will look over the thumb chapters as you suggested. I notice that what I can do successfully while single trilling when it becomes double trilling is that the mind is so concerned with the 4/5 that the 1/2 seems to get forgotten. I tried yesterday to think only of the 1/2 even when the 4/5 joined. I had to trick my mind. I can't say I'm perfectly happy with this though although I did achieve a glimpse of success. So back to the drawing board and honing! Watch this space - I will post my progress. Thanks

Exactly, you have to trick your mind. If you caught a glimpse of it, then for sure you will be able to master it some day - just keep being sly! There is also the chapter on Feux Follets from my first book which gives a whole bunch of great stuff for the thumb if you need more material to be obsessive about! And also that chapter that deals with the thumb in the coda of G minor Ballade... AFF

I think I have it - or the beginnings!! I hadn't played all week since I posted this I've been looking for pianos! But there's a few things in the honing book which hit hone (pardon the pun). I stood up on my thumb until it was straight down - but not stiff. In the Barcarolle when I started the trill on the 1/2 (a#/b) it seemed more even this way. Then I joined in the 4/5 (d/d#) by tricking my mind again. It was working even though it was slow. But then I did something when I speeded up. My thumb was upright but it now enabled my 4th/5th to stand up more and when I went down to the key bed the thumb and 4th started pushing against each other like a minute rotation but there was no gaps in the sound. They were all sounding trilling and the piano was shaking (reminded me of the shake the piano in the first book) - btw this is a weighted piano on a stand that was shaking not a concert grand. I could get then to the 5/3 trill which is like a relief anyway. I think I may need to get it lighter but I feel encouraged that I can now trill with 4/5. Another thing I noticed is that if I sit higher I could play on the bones more. Most people I see sit at a height where their arm is either level or slanting down. Mine is slightly angled up in the new position but my shoulders are down and I feel I have tons more power - not percussive loud but the boom full tone loud. However this suits something I play where I need to be on top of the notes more. For example it works while playing op10.2 on the bones with slow practice. If I try op10.1 I feel I need to be back to my normal position where my arm is more level with the keyboard. I did try op10.2 at the lower level but raising the wrist more but seemed like my wrist was slightly cocked up. Surely people don't go through the lowering/raising the stool for different works? It must be a question of the length of one's back Vs the legs?

Hi phoenix (and Alan). Thanks for your comments regarding the Op25. 6 of Chopin's studies. I was trying it out and manages to play it with some "ease" at a medium tempo. But if I speed up, I have failures because my wrists become more stiff and I have to slow down to relax again. Unfortunately, I didn't yet read the Honing book. I'm impatiantly waiting for it, as I ordered it last week. Anyway, I'll try out what you wrote here with the thumb. Personally, the best fingering which applies to my hand is 1-4 (B-D#), 2-5 (C#-E) and 2-3 (A#-CX). How is your progression with the study today ? Thanks in advance. Jack

Hi Salante! Its nice to see someone else learn this etude. I have to say though I'm not full time on this only a little. I have practiced 4/5 but I found that the 3/5 fingering works better to get faster... I've been able to get it nearer "a tempo" with this fingering. I saw Sergio Tiempo and V.Lisitsa play and noticed that when you play relaxed with 3/5 the fourth finger naturally likes to sit with the fifth finger and also there's a sense of rotation from 1 to 5 if you use the third finger to balance. I found that the longest finger "sticks out" on the keys - it's nearer to playing the keys in this position so I learnt to use it as a pivot point but also find that non equilibrium weight that Alan talks about - comparable to running where we aren't firmly ever on the ground - it keeps moving. I hope you keep going and let me know if you make any breakthroughs! Actually I seem to be concentrating on the LH when the ascending thirds are played. I don't seem to have much problem with the thirds in this sense as long as the thumb is a stabiliser. I'm using what I learned in the op.10.2 feeling to help. My LH was too low before and the chords sounded empty and not clean. I've been working on economical ease highlighting the thumb whilst giving a warm tone from the chord itself. Look forward to hearing about your progression. Cheers

Thanks a lot for the guidances phoenix ! May I ask you what you mean with the 3/5 fingering please. Do you mean B-D# with 1-3, C#-E with 2-5 and then A#-Cx with 2-4 ? I could try again another fingering to try out something else. Thanks back. Jack

Hi Salante I'm not sure if I'm correct with my findings so I wouldn't call it guidance just yet However I keep finding that sometimes when I come back a day later to what I was doing something changes and I cant think what it is that made it worse! Today I discovered that my right arm was clinging to my my body and when I moved it to the side and stuck my elbow out slightly my alignment seemed to be good. What this enabled me to do was to play a loose trill with the fingering you correctly assumed I was talking about in your question. Then I noticed that once I could feel this loosely there seemed to be some activity in my bicep (Right). At the moment I'm not sure if any of this is how it should be but it feels free anyhow. Maybe if you try it and see what you think or tell me your discoveries. If I don't play some things for a few days I seem to loose what I was doing easily sometimes. It can be so frustrating! If I was playing Beethoven, Bach, Mozart or any other "classical" technique it would come naturally!! But Chopin I really have to work on Cheers