The piano as two different instruments/Note attack and decay

Nothing revolutionary in Rubinsteins book but gooing through the examples was a healthy exercise. Looking forward to reading Banowetz. The Fazioli softpedal covers only one string which is very agreeable that should than be same the thing as using half-softpedal? Some F:s have a fourth pedal gettting the hammers closer to the strings haven't tried it but I'm sure it's very useful. Could feel as cheating though.. Apparently it's not so much about the single string (though the sympathetic vibrations on non-struck strings are said to contribute to the distinctive sound). If you think of the bass, the soft pedal can't make the hammers hit any less strings, but it should still change the tone. Apparently the softer felt that contacts the strings is the most important issue. However, Banowetz points out that a well used piano will also develop harder felt in the down position for the soft pedal. However, using a middle point may actually bring in some softer felt again. I still haven't had a chance to check this on a decent grand though. I heard that Stuart pianos also have the fourth pedal. Sounds extremely useful. I was once taught a way of playing with the soft-pedal down as normal- releasing it for accents. This only works on pianos that aren't overly subdued with the soft pedal down, so that would be an excellent alternative.

Many of Horowitz's finest moments come from this understanding of the fact that if you want to make a sound that seems to last longer, you have to stop other notes competing with it. There's a similar thing on the last page of the E minor nocturne by Chopin-from a live Carnegie Hall recording (I think it's the 1953 concert). The way he spreads a chord up to the note G (and then lets it resonate) is one of the most beautiful sounds I've ever heard. I really wish that somebody would publish a book with rational explanations of such beautifully musical old-fashioned techniques. While the results are profound, the explanations of WHY they work (and how they can be learned) are extremely logical and are often quite simple- when viewed scientifically. Why don't YOU write the book? All of you posts here have been extremely erudite and right on - I think you could do it. AFF

Hi all, Sorry to have been gone so long. --been out with back surgery & now the flu, but am doing better. At least I'm here, now at the forum, which is a good place to be. You raise some interesting concerns. Before I get into the real topic, let me address the extra pedal/string type thingy. There are some pianos that have a 4th string for sympathetic vibration. This is called "duplex stringing," and it gives added brilliance, especially in the treble. There is also "duplex scaling," which is a bar that is either stationary or not, placed in the non-speaking length of the string, just after the bridge. If you look inside a good grand, you will see these little bars. They are used for the same thing--to give extra resonance to the treble, by tuning that length of "dead" string, so it is out-of-tune with the main string, thus causing overtones that wouldn't be there to be there: thus, extra resonance and brilliance, at least that's the theory. With movable "alloquats" you can play around with them until you get the note sounding just as you want it on a specific kind of blow. Now, about the initial "bang" at the attack and decay. --I'll try not to get into this deeply. The beautiful ping heard when the string is 1st struck (the bang) will only be found in finer pianos. That really needs to be understood. It takes a Good (top-tier) piano to give you that special sound. Horowitz, had what he thought the best piano in the world; and put the best piano in the world together with the best player, and a piano technician that knew what he was doing, you have the sing, the resonance, brilliance, pluckiness, carry, power, soft as can be, all of it available and can be called forward under the player who knows the piano. In finer pianos, you will hear the initial attack (ping), and then the sound will "bloom." and then the strong fundamental dies away, and the partials that are given out by the string become mixed in with the fundamental, and you hear that. This can happen right after the note is played, then decay slowly or take a little while to build, then decay into a steady, carrying sound. We generally shoot for a sustain time of 7-8 seconds. These things happen because of the voice the piano is given. That is done not by the pianist but by the technician, who "voices" the hammers. Soft felt sounds much different than hard, it has an ethereal quality. It's that wonderful change in timbre you get when you use the una corda pedal, not for playing softly (do that with your technique), but to get the other voice that comes from the soft vs hard felt of the hammer. It takes the pianist to know where this is. As you move the una corda, you probably can find a really "sweet" spot, like angels singing. Each little bit you move the pedal, moves the hammer so it hits the string just that much differently. The una corda can be adjusted so that when used, it moves the hammer out of the hard grove and further to the edge of the string or even moves the hammer to where the left side, no longer contacts any string. Steinway sets their pianos so the left side is still in contact with the string, although, just barely. Other piano makers usually set their pianos so that full una corda, shifts the keys far enough to the right, so that the left edge of the hammer no longer touches the string, but not so far that it is playing the higher note. A good technician will work with the pianist to soften the felt between the groves so that the effect can be there all the time and it can be different at even the slightest change in the una corda shift. It's mandatory to keep soft felt and to know where it is. If the una corda is used to play softly, the felt will compact and you will loose the ethereal effect that is supposed to be there. Even doing it right still compacts the felt, so the technincian is needed often, to re-soften the felt. Horowitz's technican traveled with him and he did what was needed to make the hammer just as Horowitz wanted. The type of sound made when the string is played is according to how hard the hammer hits the string and what part of the hammer's felt is being accessed. The felt is softer on the surface and gets harder, the deeper you go. So again, this can be adjusted, so that a certain blow will make a certain sound. It's up to the pianist to know exactly the weight needed to get to the spot in the hammer that gives him the sound that is wanted--how brilliant it is, how resonant, is it sharp and plucky or sharp and clipped. All these things are done by how the force of playing which causes the felt of the hammer to be compressed. I'm certain Horowitz knew exactly what weight to use to get what effect. And he kept his technician there to make certain it happened. So, if you know your piano and have it set up as you want, you can get marvelous colors, dynamics, out of it, because the hammers have been set that way. If you don't know the piano or the hammers have never been given a "voice," then your fighting a loosing battle. Voicing of the piano takes a very skilled piano technician, especially one who voices for performance. Check your piano and if it's not doing the initial attack as you want, not blooming the right way, not giving you angels in the soft felt, then it's time to call the technican. Playing softly is a little more complicated, because the keys have to be set up so you can first of all, let a soft blow move the hammer. We are talking tolerances in the piano action of .001 inches. If off by just that amount, it can ruin a pp and you may never get a ppp and certainly not a playing into, morendo. Once the action is set to let you play softly, then it goes back to making sure the hammers are voiced so the felt is uncompressed at the spot you want and that particular amount of compression of the felt, with your hammer blow, gives the sound you want. To make things even more complicated, there are three really good hammers used today: Steinway, Abel, and Renner (S&S also uses Renner). To get the same effect, these hammers have to be voiced in a different way. If I were to voice a Renner hammer as I would an Abel, I'd ruin it. The technician must know how to voice what hammer is on the piano. The player should choose the hammers he/she likes the best. Did you ever know the piano is so complicated? I've said more than I wanted. But this gives you an idea of some of the challenges. When you play, you have to know what the attack sounds like and what comes after--know where it is in the weight of your playing and how it changes as you change the weight. (this is supposing the hammer is set up to do that) Horowitz knew full well every nuance of touch, what happened when he moved the pedal here or there. As artists, to really get from your piano what you want, it has to be given its voice, and you (we) must learn to let it speak. To do that takes real skill and be able to feel and hear how each change in blow weight and strike speed, makes a change in the piano's voice. Bob T Provo, Utah USA

Why don't YOU write the book? All of you posts here have been extremely erudite and right on - I think you could do it. AFF I don't think I'd ever be organised enough to do something like that, but perhaps someday! By the way, have you heard this pianist? I'm not a fan of many modern players, but this really stood out. He's obviously been influenced by Horowitz and has fantastic understanding of the Horowitzian voicing principles that relate to this thread. This sounds like the proper type of 'projection' that would really work in a hall (as opposed to the "play everything louder" style).

Hmmm... my WHOLE BOOK is trying to empower pianists to do exactly this - that's its whole orientation! BUT: in my book do I say it exactly the way you do here! I'm grateful that we can have a conversation here and through fleshing out our ideas arrive at formulations that are crystal clear for everyone. Ditto for the posts subsequent to yours... Thanks! AFF Thanks. I would like to boil down all the principles of top level playing into something like this, because I believe that is the easiest way in which they can be taught, learned, and appreciated. I think we are seeing less and less pianists today with a distinctive sound because less and less of them know EXACTLY how to get it. Now, about the initial "bang" at the attack and decay. --I'll try not to get into this deeply. The beautiful ping heard when the string is 1st struck (the bang) will only be found in finer pianos. That really needs to be understood. It takes a Good (top-tier) piano to give you that special sound. I hear this (Albeit subtly) on every piano I have played so far - except the bang is often a rather ugly sound if I may say so myself. When all you hear from the melody notes is this bang (As you do when you hear most badly playing amateurs), the melody acquires this very strained sound. But when you do it just right - the bang "Announces" the note - "Hey, I'm here, now listen to me " and I might say it actually enhances the sound. It seems to me that the sound of a note played and the volume it was played are interconnected in a way that is independent of the volume you actually hear it. Put another way - if you really smash out a bass octave it will sound like some kind of explosion, if you play it say - MF it will sound like a rumble. If you recorded notes all played at different dynamic levels, and then equalized the volume and played it back, you'd have no trouble telling which was played what. Probably this has to do with overtones or something of the sort (No doubt Bob could shed light on this..) I can only assume the same is true in a big hall. (Then again, I don't frequent big halls)). I'm going to try putting my recorder at the back of the biggest hall I can find, and playing something. Then we'll will see what's what. I suspect that the biggest problem is keeping everything clear more than "Playing louder" since there would be more and more reverberation the further back you go. Actually, more discussion about projection would be great.

Thanks. I would like to boil down all the principles of top level playing into something like this, because I believe that is the easiest way in which they can be taught, learned, and appreciated. I think we are seeing less and less pianists today with a distinctive sound because less and less of them know EXACTLY how to get it. I hear this (Albeit subtly) on every piano I have played so far - except the bang is often a rather ugly sound if I may say so myself. When all you hear from the melody notes is this bang (As you do when you hear most badly playing amateurs), the melody acquires this very strained sound. But when you do it just right - the bang "Announces" the note - "Hey, I'm here, now listen to me You are really on to something here. I broke my finger the other day playing hockey so cannot answer you at length for awhile. But see Kemal's and mine discussion of how HOROWITZ DID NOT PLAY LOUD, it was all illusion. If you really play loud you lose the discrimination of the fine overtones - he 'pinged' notes precisely and knew how not to 'override...' It's an amazing science once you get into it. If you really play loud, there is 'no room' for all the notes. The overtones of one cancel out the overtones of the other and your tone gets 'gray.' When you lower the volume you INCREASE the 'jangling' of the overtones. Thus 'projection' is not so much laying loud as making extreme dynamic differences... AFF

I like this discussion. We are talking about both the piano and the pianist. Each has to do its/his/her own part to make things work. that's where practice and skill and listening come in as you feel your touch and what the piano does. With the more force (that's mass + acceleration) the hammer's overtones produced are different. As a pianist, you can change how hard you play, how quickly you play. Each change, and I do mean each--the most subtle change in attack, will cause a different portion of the felt of the hammer when it strikes the string, to compress. We really don't need to know the technical stuff--the technician can take care of that, but be able to feel what's happening--that means perfect control. e.g. Horowitz. For example, to play a note softly requires less force than to play it loudly. Makes sense. But how is this done? Generally, we lighten the touch and play on the top of the hammer, but since it is in the groves where there is hard felt, it will have that kind of sound. We can also play softly by instead of lightening the touch (some has to be done), slow the velocity of the blow. If the weight is same but the velocity slower, we will playing softly. But because the velocity of the strike has changed, the hammer moves to the string slower, and that compresses a different part of the hammer felt. It's like shooting a bullet at an egg. --a small object (our play weight lightened) moving very fast (our play speed) is going to explode the egg on initial contact. In playing that way, we will get that "bang" (I prefer "ping" on a good piano), plus a blown apart egg. So the overtones, which makes the beauty as well as sustain, after the strike will be made in a certain way. If the same egg is approached by placing a 50# weight just over it, then let go, the egg is going to break and explode just as it would had it been shot. But the initial strike, because weight has been traded for velocity, will make a different set of overtones. And there won't be as much "ping" on the attack. Now, isn't that wonderful. We can get the piano to give not just two types of sound when playing the same volume note, but many types of sound, according to how it is approached. If we like the sound, we learn through practice, to do the same thing again. If we want that sound, we can call up from memory and muscle memory, what it takes to make it. So a study of a piece of music, becomes, how do I want this note to sound--and it can be done for each note (as well as silence) that is played. Not to harp on this, but Horowitz and his old friend the piano, knew how to talk to each other. The piano said, you play me this way and this is the sound I'll give. Horowitz used his knowledge, feel, touch, of that to make such wonderful music. My piano and I had a nasty conversation for three years. A certain section produced a "bang" when played at mF and above. at p or less it was great. It was a nasty sound on the attack. It lasted for only a fraction of a second, but was very noticeable to me. For two years, my technician could not hear the problem--but recording sure picked it up, as did my ears. Finally he heard what I was complaining about. We called in a friend how does symphony tunings and works as a head tech for Renner--this fellow is good. The problem was diagnosed a "longitudinal waves." This only happens at the initial strike, lasts for an instant, and is gone--but the "bang" is there and if listened to will ruin the sound of the line. The conclusion after trying everything we could think of was it's just the piano. At the 3 yr point I finally said, this is unacceptable anymore. I want it fixed or get another piano. We did a few more tests. He wanted to know where exactly the nasty sound was. I told him. He had new scale design software. My piano's scale was plugged into the program and out popped where if the piano was going to have trouble, it would occur. The answer the computer gave for my piano's nasty "bang," before going back into good tone was the exact 8 notes I had complained about. It was being caused by excitement of the 15th overtone of the note, interacting with the other overtones. We changed the piano string in this section to one which took 1# less tension to get it up to pitch: instead of requiring 200#s, this string needed 199#s. The change was immediate. That slight lessening of tension moved the 15th overtone just enough so it no longer interacted with the others, to produce the nasty attack. My three year problem, which had no answer was cured. And instead of having and hearing a "twang" on a F, I got a "ping." If the piano wasn't worth it, this would have never been done. Since the piano is still under warranty and it could be shown (by the computer program) that the problem really was a problem, I didn't have to pay for the $1,500 fix. Interestingly, I went to the store (they sell only top-tier pianos) and every piano there, had at least one note that on the initial strike did this. This percussive sound, as done in S&S pianos, is liked by most to be a "ping," followed by a bloom of sound as the vibrations travel up/down, back/forth, on the string. If you hear a "bang" or "twang" when you play, some overtone somewhere is causing it; and these overtones then effect the total quality and carry of the sound. Bob t

Alan, I just read your post as I posted my long diatribe. You are exactly right. I'm glad you say in a few words, what I am trying to say in many, probably too technical. Your comments about overtones and Horowitz and how it works is precise. Isn't it marvelous what we can learn. Bob t

It seems to me that the sound of a note played and the volume it was played are interconnected in a way that is independent of the volume you actually hear it. Put another way - if you really smash out a bass octave it will sound like some kind of explosion, if you play it say - MF it will sound like a rumble. If you recorded notes all played at different dynamic levels, and then equalized the volume and played it back, you'd have no trouble telling which was played what. That sounds like a plausible hypothesis. Has anyone ever tested it by performing the experiment you described? Probably this has to do with overtones or something of the sort That sounds like a plausible hypothesis to explain your first plausible hypothesis. If the experiment were performed it would be easy to examine the overtones. I have a piano, digital recording equipment, and software to perform spectral analysis, so when I find the time to do it I will perform the experiment described above and report my results.

As a pianist, you can change how hard you play, how quickly you play. Each change, and I do mean each--the most subtle change in attack, will cause a different portion of the felt of the hammer when it strikes the string, to compress. I'm a guitarist and singer (and Feldenkrais practitioner), not a pianist, but I do have a piano. I just went to my piano and played the same note repeatedly, attempting to vary the weight and speed independently. I don't think that I was successful. I was able to play softer or louder but it felt that I was varying a single parameter rather than two. How is it possible to learn to vary the weight and speed independently? Can anyone suggest how I could go about learning to do it? Pianists, are _you able to do it?