My personal feeling is that when Andrew started with his arm weight stuff, you got distracted from the basically healthy, "improve the one huge missing element" tack you and I had been on, and you've never really gotten back.
We worked on activating your fingers which were alarmingly dormant, and I knew if you just kept at it after our week together, you would see steady improvement. Now of course, you can't just do one thing dogmatically for ever. But you can develop variants on that one thing that keep cultivating and improving that missing part. Only when it was fully in place might we then have allowed ourselves the luxury of considering arm weight.
Nothing of what Andrew says is wrong: but pedagogy is about applying the right piece of knowledge at the right time. His information deflected you from the path we had set up and got you going around in circles again.
Sorry Andrew, but I have to call 'em as I see 'em.
All best and good luck,
AFF
Nothing I've said is intended to distract in any way from the fullest continuation of the hand action. I saw a film in the past where his hand was trying to work very hard- but the arm was held immovable in a way that stopped it responding to what the hand was trying to do. I can't emphasise any more strongly that I'm not encouraging any form of falling/dropping or pressing with the arm- but simply to allow it to respond to the ongoing activations in the hand and hence create a more unified connection from which to manipulate with the fingers. I'm talking about a passive response to the hand's role- not any form of replacement at all. This is just about the polar opposite of traditional "arm-weight" stuff.
If that has indeed occurred, I really haven't had any intention of taking even an ounce of attention away from the hand usage. In fact, I'm actually trying to clarify that where he has previously been speaking about "weight" I strongly suspect that he is actually using the type of pushing that can severely conflicts with finger activation- rather than the type of lighter hanging that allows the fingers to keep providing the energy. When he refers to "weight" I suspect that he is thinking in the traditional sense and am trying to steer him away from thinking that way.
Allowing the arm to hang back from the finger in release should serve to boost the possibility of what legato finger actions can produce. I can't follow how it could encourage arm pressures or finger inactivity. In my experience, it usually serves to expose them and gets students in a position where actions at the knuckle start making a really big sound. I see a lot of students who simply can't get any power out of the hand until they allow the arm to release enough to hang everything into alignment. Once there's a sense of being connected to the finger (rather than either holding or pressing forwards), actions from the knuckle really start to produce something big. This doesn't have anything at all in common with the idea that weight produces the tone via inactivity in the hand. I hope nothing I have said has been read by him that way- as this is the absolute opposite of what I have been looking to convey.
What I'm trying to say,Andrew, is maybe similar to the thai-chi-walking in the dvd, that is transfering weight. If I remember right only hand and fingers are pictured. But what about the rest? If you do thai-chi-walking without using triceps/biceps at all you'll see that the fingers will have to support quite a weight? and positively forces you to align "sceletally correctly. From there you can try different forward/backward approaches and different wristpositions in order to get the feeling of the most efficient (comfortable) sceletal alignment. In a dynamic way.
I agree that developping fingers/hand is the base and maybe thats's all one should concentrate on in the first like five years. I beleive in the old "russian system" as expressed by Lhevinne. But some individuals do tense up to much during this long course and therefore it might be appropriate to introduce proper relaxation at an early stage.
It's interesting to handle technical issues in a forum at the same time maybe a student should stick 100% to his teacher and discuss any aspect with his/her teacher.
Georgy Cziffra said that you need very strong/developped fingers to be able to support the weight and you need to be c o m p l e t e l y loose in your arms and shoulders. He also jokingly said that that won't take you very far. But it's a good start.
"What I'm trying to say,Andrew, is maybe similar to the thai-chi-walking in the dvd, that is transfering weight. If I remember right only hand and fingers are pictured. But what about the rest? If you do thai-chi-walking without using triceps/biceps at all you'll see that the fingers will have to support quite a weight?"
Does that involve holding things forward- in order to place the weight over the top? I'm not saying that's not a good exercise but I think that's very different from what happens when you truly release the arm and let it hang backwards. Anything that involves holding forwards involves weight go into the keys- not observing what a more passive arm does. When I simply let go of everything (even in the shoulder- although this would rarely be releasing anywhere near 100% in regular playing) what surprises me is quite how little force this requires my hand to bear. It just doesn't make me feel "heavy" unless I come to it with the preconception that it's supposed to. I'm not saying nobody would have a physically heavier arm that might express itself a little more, but I believe this is an instance where if you expect to be "heavy" (rather than just observe) your brain makes adjustements. I don't believe the inherent angle at which the arm is aligned for the piano is conducive to all that big a force, unless various muscles are braced or pressing- to redirect the direction in which the force naturally would naturally go.
I think I mentioned in a post before that there was a time when I would often feel too much pressure in my hand, yet would be surprised to find that relaxing my arm actually relieved the effort of the hand. Rather than suffering from the consequences of being too heavy, there was pushes I wasn't noticing. I think this is why traditional "weight" thinking can be risky. I think it's more useful to make observations about a passive arm and adapt around that foundation- rather than start with preconceptions about what weight is "supposed" to do. That can result in what is taken as a netural position being one that is actually loaded with muscular arm pressures and fixations.
"I agree that developping fingers/hand is the base and maybe thats's all one should concentrate on in the first like five years. I beleive in the old "russian system" as expressed by Lhevinne. But some individuals do tense up to much during this long course and therefore it might be appropriate to introduce proper relaxation at an early stage."
Yeah, I think it's vital for the arm to learn to hang back during this stage. The times I would press the most were when my wrist started bunching up high- limiting the productivity of finger motions and making them feel incapable. I think this was caused by the idea that the arm is supposed to be heavy. I was pressing forwards to get more weight over the top- which was often exactly what prevented the fingers working freely and productively. There's nothing wrong with doing that sometimes- but the arm has to know how release enough to hang back too, or there are big problems. It's from there that the fingers can be most easily develop movement. You can't easily keep pressing the arm forwards and having that kind of weight bearing down from over the top in regular playing. The chain idea is counterintuitive because the natural inclination is to want to feel weight on top of the hand- but it's when you let the arm hang behind (and seemingly away) that the hand is able to be at its most productive.
"Does that involve holding things forward- in order to place the weight over the top? "
No I usually want to feel the fingerpads but I'd say there is a slight movement up with the wrist and conseqently a bit forward. It's like if you took away the keyboard the hand and arm would fall down.
I have to think more about these things.Anyhow since you started out with them weight's I've been reconsidering a lot of my postures and I beleive my playing is more "integrated" and most of all more relaxed. Some of the things my old teachers tried to say do get a new sense as well.
"Does that involve holding things forward- in order to place the weight over the top? "
No I usually want to feel the fingerpads but I'd say there is a slight movement up with the wrist and conseqently a bit forward. It's like if you took away the keyboard the hand and arm would fall down.
Ah, but what's keeping the wrist up? An aligned wrist can be hung between shoulder and finger. A raised wrist is being held there by something other than the hand action alone. I'm not saying there's anything inherently "wrong" with this position. However, my point is that if this is felt as a neutrally released arm, it simply isn't! Something is keeping the wrist forward and up. The connection with the piano is stopping it falling down- but it's efforts in the arm that keep the wrist from being pulled back. Were it not for those efforts, nowhere near as much downward force would be felt.
I found it very important to improve my perception of what a universally released arm does and how this interacts with the hand. It really doesn't exert a big pressure through it. From the most neutral of starting points for the arm, I can adapt to a variety of other positions with awareness of where the efforts are. For me, this state is an essential point of departure. As you can see on my old films, my right wrist was always being pressed into a raised position. This seemed to be normal- but clearly the arm had to have been pressing it forwards. I had no idea where these efforts were, because I though it was about what gravity does naturally. But true release of the arm does not lead to such a force. I was too busy trying to make gravity press the notes down and not concerned enough with letting it straighten my wrist for me.
This is why I want to clarify the difference between traditional arm-weight technique and what released weight REALLY does. Letting the arm hang back freely can substantially when I talk about the real effects of releasing the arm.
Like I said I have to think about this...
But don't get me wrong I do not (almost never ever) have a high wrist-position, on the contrary. What I'm saying is that when my arm is "hanging" pad on key, I add pressure on my pad by s l i g h t l y moving the wrist it's a question of a mm or so.It's the movement itself that's interesting.I guess there is at the same time a kind of grasping by lumbricals Makes the lumbricals work and I guess muscels in the forearm but not biceps/triceps.
Or?
I'm not saying this is a one-solution to play the piano but it's a way to get the feeling I think archidesign was writing about.
Like I said I have to think about this...
But don't get me wrong I do not (almost never ever) have a high wrist-position, on the contrary. What I'm saying is that when my arm is "hanging" pad on key, I add pressure on my pad by s l i g h t l y moving the wrist it's a question of a mm or so.It's the movement itself that's interesting.I guess there is at the same time a kind of grasping by lumbricals Makes the lumbricals work and I guess muscels in the forearm but not biceps/triceps.
Or?
I'm not saying this is a one-solution to play the piano but it's a way to get the feeling I think archidesign was writing about.
Okay, I see. I'm certainly not opposed to the idea of testing the hand this way. I'd just be sure to feel how the wrist slowly returns when the arm stops pushing forwards- so you come back to more neutral hanging arm (while continuing to keep hand active). I think it's important to be able to come back to something where you're not expecting a big pressure against the key, but rather observing how much occurs when the arm simply hangs in release. I think the risk with such things is if you press the weight over the top, but don't train yourself to feel how a truly released arm will come back again. Personally I'd been so stuck in that forward position, that it was the feeling of returning from that which I needed (and still need) to develop the most. I had to understand the true effects of release through unbiased observation- rather than of striving to shove the weight around.
Yes! That's what I'm trying to do and letting the wrist go back to a "default".
It's mostly the second finger which benefits from this "treatment".
Ok. I'm deeply sorry for generating this debate between Mr. Fraser and Andrew.
How can I make the arm work harder?
But I do see improvements. Without activating my fingers I wouldn't have reached 208 bpm. My fingers are activated and my wrist breathes. The elbow could be a little more loose dough. I lose stability at high speeds. If I try to play a scale at 52 bpm with 16th notes, things are getting quite sloppy. In your opinion, Alan, which would be the next step for me?
If that has indeed occurred, I really haven't had any intention of taking even an ounce of attention away from the hand usage. In fact, I'm actually trying to clarify that where he has previously been speaking about "weight" I strongly suspect that he is actually using the type of pushing that can severely conflicts with finger activation- rather than the type of lighter hanging that allows the fingers to keep providing the energy. When he refers to "weight" I suspect that he is thinking in the traditional sense and am trying to steer him away from thinking that way.
I was using that type of weight perception indeed. But after Alan helped me activating my fingers I started feeling that the elbow pushed the forearm (together with the hand) into the keys. I assume that is why the wrist locked itself: to compensate the downward motion. I am still working on this issue. All in all it is not so severe anymore. The major problem now are my shoulders. They get tensed and I feel that they hold back something.
When I get home I will film myself playing a Hanon drill, a scale or a piece in order to help you Alan and Andrew to make a clear picture regarding the stage I'm at the moment.
I'm also very sorry, Alan, if taking Andrew's advices into consideration disturbed you so much. I just wanted a second point of view. If you think I make mistakes, please correct me. Anyway, I hope I didn't get so far off the right track.
"How can I make the arm work harder?"
Ah, I meant the opposite. You should make it do less work. For the arm to be worked harder is the problem that is caused! If the hand is not activating properly, it FORCES the arm to work harder- simply to stop your arm flopping down. The arm has no choice but to become more "held"- which I suspect is the reason for the shoulder tensions. The arm likely needs to be more passive and the hand needs to connect better for that to be possible without a great big flop. I want to make it absolutely clear that this is all about responses to ongoing hand activations- never a replacement for them! A passive hand renders the whole thing impossible. Allowing the wrist to be drawn back by a loose arm is intended to facilitate and inspire even greater hand activation- not to reduce it.
