The arch is largely very good, but I can see how the knuckles do not always fully go into position- not because of the finger itself, but because there's not enough counterweight for it to respond to in the balance.
Have you tried releasing the wrist more, but trying to feel how a slightly greater pull from the finger will pretty much balance out?
This also has consequences over the sound. My notes are very weak. I tried releasing the wrist but I'm not sure I did what I had to do. Should this feel like you're trying to collapse the whole structure from the wrist while activating the fingers more?
Can you be more explicit?
Parallel with what?
I have observed that while in stretched position for octave playing the 2nd and 3rd fingers are naturally straightening, while the 4th is dependent of the 5th. If the 5th is curls the 4th will curl too. If the 5th straightens, so will the 4th. I think that this drastically reduces the options. You can only work with the 5th in order to keep the 4th away from the keys when it doesn't have to play. Or maybe with enough practice I will gain more independence over the 4th. This is something only you can tell me.
While playing the 15th etude from Tchaikovsky's Album for the Young(not the one in the clip) I also noticed that when non legato(even staccato) must be used, my left hand elbow and some muscles under the shoulder start to tense and pull the upper arm towards the body. Now my wrist and fingers work fairly efficient but I feel this unwanted muscular activity is limiting my playing freedom.
I have observed that while in stretched position for octave playing the 2nd and 3rd fingers are naturally straightening, while the 4th is dependent of the 5th. If the 5th is curls the 4th will curl too. If the 5th straightens, so will the 4th. I think that this drastically reduces the options. You can only work with the 5th in order to keep the 4th away from the keys when it doesn't have to play. Or maybe with enough practice I will gain more independence over the 4th. This is something only you can tell me.
I agree with you. You need to have complete independence of all the fingers even in octave position. Fingers 2 and 3 do not necessarily need to straighten - you should be able to curl or curve tehm too independently, and the same goes for figner 4. Perhaps some octave overholding excercises would help - depress 5 keys with 5 fingers in an octave stretch and try to lift individual fingers and play their note while keeping all the other keys depressed - once this is easy do 2 finger combinations.
Make sure not to press too hard into the keyboard and feel as if your shoulder and writs are dead - they never initiate any movement - if they happen to move anywhere it is because your "strong" fingers are leading the way (do not stiffen them in one fixed position either - find the "neutral point" where they just follow the fingers to assist them).
This can take quite a while to gain this kind of independence. I would guess that at least 3 weeks of daily practice are need to see some kind of improvement (no more than a few minutes at a time and stop immediately if you feel even mild pain)
"This also has consequences over the sound. My notes are very weak. I tried releasing the wrist but I'm not sure I did what I had to do. Should this feel like you're trying to collapse the whole structure from the wrist while activating the fingers more?"
Alan showed me an exercise where the wrist starts very low and finger tries to pull the arm up. The arm helps a little to drift up, but the finger very much leads by pulling the whole arm forwards and up. There's no spilling over the top and pointing the force willfully down- it's all felt as upward motion. Counter that by starting with an aligned wrist and practising collapsing it onto any old notes- like the mashing exercise. Even let it sag down well below the keys though. Then try to combine the two sensations. There is no fall, but the release is felt, in proportion with the upward pull. This allows the finger to impart much more force. But gravity is felt much more at the wrist than at the fingertip (even though it doe make a difference to the force applied there). I see your fingers working very well, but they are limited in the counterweight that they need to work against. It's a bit like using a light wii controller and making sudden movements. It feels a lot more natural to impart energy to a real bowling ball of serious mass. With the controller, there's nothing to push against (but thin air) so the energy has nowhere to go. It's not quite the same situation, but it's certainly related. If you don't release the wrist enough, the finger does not have the same opportunity to direct it's motion into anything. I think you need a little more counterweight, to be able to transfer a high quality of action into more sound. Then the whole arm is more involved in the transfer- without the wrist being 'fixed' or the finger feeling isolated.
"Can you be more explicit?"
Align your fifth at the angle which you play the octave and try to pull the upper key (from the finger alone) in the finger's natural line of motion ie. not in the line of the key but in the natural line from which your knuckle would pull. If your wrist is free you will feel a strong sideways pull of your whole hand and arm. So the only way to activate the finger is to stiffen, or be pulled offline. So either you have to have a dead, inactive finger or stiffening. When the finger is more parallel to the line of the key, instead of diagonal, it's natural path of movement does not generate so much sideways force. The force it does generate is in the line of gravity- so you can counter it with release, rather than by effort. Sideways forces can only be cancelled by added effort, whereas upwards ones can be cancelled by release of effort. When I play each finger, my wrist actually releases more than when I line up over the keys (well, when it's going well, at least). If the finger and wrist are to balance out, the more activity that is going on in the fingers, the more the wrist will be releasing to compensate. If not, it suggests that the stabilisation is coming from holding things in place.
"I have observed that while in stretched position for octave playing the 2nd and 3rd fingers are naturally straightening, while the 4th is dependent of the 5th. If the 5th is curls the 4th will curl too. If the 5th straightens, so will the 4th. I think that this drastically reduces the options. You can only work with the 5th in order to keep the 4th away from the keys when it doesn't have to play. Or maybe with enough practice I will gain more independence over the 4th. This is something only you can tell me."
I suspect that there's something you could do. Can you play the fifth normally without hitting the fourth? If so, you simply need to make the action more similar to that. I think the level of collapse seen in the video makes it very hard to stop the fourth and fifth landing as a unit, rather than acting individually. Also, have you tried squeezing lightly against the side of the keys while on each octave? Don't go go crazy, but when done faintly it should naturally stand everything up. Feel the inward force more.
"While playing the 15th etude from Tchaikovsky's Album for the Young(not the one in the clip) I also noticed that when non legato(even staccato) must be used, my left hand elbow and some muscles under the shoulder start to tense and pull the upper arm towards the body. Now my wrist and fingers work fairly efficient but I feel this unwanted muscular activity is limiting my playing freedom."
Try using the finger action to knock you away- pulling you slightly forward and then up. Don't fight the return force at all. If anything, go with it for now, but try to monitor the direction. Are you pushed straight up or sideways at all? If the finger acts in the right path, you feel the line is almost straight upward. From there, simply practise the big wrist collapses and you'll be able to start reducing the actual upward movement, without fighting against the force, but by simply releasing the right level of weight into it.
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"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture"
anon
It's extraordinary how a release at the wrist can actually give the hand more force and just the needed ammount of pressure. However, as you said, it is hard to control the throttle of the upward force coming from the fingers and the one of the downward force coming from the arm. Going full force with both will only generate more tension. When I was doing this wrong I could feel it especially when playing with my thumb.
Regarding the counterweight I think that this was the main problem on account of I was feeling that something went wrong and my shoulders had to carry the arm. My hand felt increasingly lighter, insecure and unstable the higher the speed went.
A couple of pitfalls to avoid- remember that the counterweight should come from release- not effort. If you feel more tension, that may suggest that you are thinking of a downward force. This can lead to effort rather than gravity. Don't willfully seek downward forces but slowly release more and more of the muscles that withold gravity and simply notice what force results. If you think of it purely as release (except in the hand), does it still feel like more effort? I only feel tired when I push, not when I release (at least on one individual chord). Strictly speaking, the release of gravity should not add tensions anywhere- it should remove them. Only the hand itself should work harder to sustain balance- or it's not actually gravitational forces that you are adding. However, it may just be that your hand is not used to it yet, so the hand may well have to work much harder than normal. That's okay, but just build up the level of release gradually so the effort is not too much too soon- that is, if you're sure that it is indeed release of gravity that causes tension and not intent to push.
Also, try sometimes thinking of collapsing a little at the wrist but then compensating with the fingers. The more normal way is to start with the finger and release against the natural pull on the wrist, but it's valuable to perceive it from both ends. starting more from release of the wrist rather than the finger may enable you to release it even more. Maybe if the finger is actually slightly overworking (rather than balancing just right agains the release in the wrist), that might be causing added tension? Anyway, when you strive towards the right relations between the levels, you should start to find that each can prompt the other. As the association grows from both sides of the balancing forces, it gradually becomes more possible for them to match up subconsciously. Thinking of one begins to spill over into improvement in the other too. Merely thinking of the fingers can gradually begin to lead to corresponding releases in the wrist and merely thinking of greater releases in the arm might gradually help to inspire better finger actions (assuming you know the basic actions, of course- I'm not saying this will teach a hand everything it needs from scratch without additional work). The more consciously you try to perceive sides of the balanced equations in conscious practice, the more the relations start to sort themselves out, when you look particularly at one half.
Very interesting. However it's odd for one that has just had the first contacts with these kind of sensations. It sometimes makes you think that you're playing wrong again and getting back to those old bad habbits.
From which point further do we risk developing ulnar deviation or any other playing related injuries? Of course if we take into consideration the fact that the position of the hand remains parallel with the length of the keys.
"Very interesting. However it's odd for one that has just had the first contacts with these kind of sensations. It sometimes makes you think that you're playing wrong again and getting back to those old bad habbits."
As long as you remember that it's designed to lead to interactions (and have a good idea of what those interactions are), it shouldn't be a problem. Remember that the counterweight normally comes from releasing the wrist more, but not actually collapsing it. Then it shouldn't matter if you actually collapse a little (and judge the imbalance that occurred), as part of the process of trying to feel the correct interaction. Just be very careful that the wrist does not press down. It's vital to remember counterweightl stems from correctly paced partial release- not from willfully striving for a downward force or from letting go of everything in one instantaneous and unguided collapse.
"From which point further do we risk developing ulnar deviation or any other playing related injuries? Of course if we take into consideration the fact that the position of the hand remains parallel with the length of the keys."
It shouldn't be a problem unless you actually fix at the shoulder. Taking the elbow a little away from the body (not as you play a chord, but for the general alignment) should actually prevent ulnar deviation and help to line up better with the fifth. I know Alan is opposed to excess elbow out, but I definitely went too far with allowing mine to droop in and compromised the alignment behind my 5th- limiting that interaction between finger action and counterweight. Lots of arm exercises with light weights gives a good feel for how to balance without seizures. Particularly the clucking like a chicken exercise. I use 16kg dumbells for some exercises, but just a 2kgplate in each hand can be tiring with that one. I realised that I've barely used those muscles properly for anything. After a few of those, opening out at the shoulder is no longer much effort. Remembering how the mass of the arm must still act as a shockabsorber means I can partially withold weight, but still maintain enough release- rather than fix the shoulder. However, if you generally withold too much, I'd probably focus equally on exercises that help the shoulders to release downward. Taking them right up and then collapsing onto the piano from the whole shoulder is very useful. From what I can sense, the muscles that would lift your shoulders upwards and outwards need to be capable of maintaining the faintest action, to stop a sagging shoulder. But you certainly want to be capable of making it sag first.
I think that if I release too little the pulling of the fingers drags the hand too much and if I release too suddenly I risk charging the fingers with too much weight. It's a pretty unstable equilibrium but I hope I will be able to integrate it in my playing. If I remember correctly my first teacher sort of tried to obtain it by sustaining wy wrist from under. I guess it was pretty much the same thing (induced artificially) but I wasn't able to maintain it as I couldn't perceive and understand what and why I was doing what I was doing.
The thing I consider the most difficult is being able to distinguish between seeking for a downward force and just letting the gravity to act. I think this is the key of my problem. At least for the stage I am at this moment.
Maybe Alan was wright when he said that many pianists play correctly without actually knowing what they are doing and that's why their teaching is not optimal.
I will buy some wrist weights in the next days. I am very curious how this helps.
Very efficient. Is this the finger action school? But some tension still remains. Maybe that's because I can't play the song faster than 40bpm yet. And an offtopic: how short should the staccato be? Half of the value of the note? It sounds odd at this slow speed but I hope it'll be allright once I will be able to play the song in tempo.
"I think that if I release too little the pulling of the fingers drags the hand too much and if I release too suddenly I risk charging the fingers with too much weight."
Yeah, basically. Too little release can also lead to emergency stiffening to stop the wrist drifting upwards. So if you're being dragged when you don't release the wrist enough, that's definitely a good sign (and sometimes it's fine for the wrist to drift up a little in normal playing, rather than be absolutely level). Far easier to fix that (when you are feeling what the force does, rather than fighting it), than if you end up trying to hold the wrist still.
Actually, though, strictly speaking too much release at the wrist should just collapse it and not necessarily work the fingers hard at all. It could be that your fingers are automatically responding well to the release and matching it. But it could be that you are pushing, say, and that the wrist is not releasing as you think. Maybe the release is not quite matching the fingers yet? Could it be that even when you aim to overrelease the wrist, you are actually working the fingers too hard still and not releasing the wrist enough? Just posible theories but try just collapsing the wrist downward, without the fingers making any effort to respond at all. Allow (but don't press) the whole palm to release onto a cluster. This is along the lines of what should be happening, if the fingers do not match the release. It's worth ensuring that are capable of missing the balance on either side, to be sure that you fully understand what you want to aim for. Also, i noticed that you have a very pronounced arch. I'd sometimes try to feel the interactions by starting from a very low wrist and very flat fingers. Then try to feel how the interaction continues as you slowly use the action to move from a flat finger to a more exaggerated stand. You need to feel the interaction for a whole range of different posiitons.
"It's a pretty unstable equilibrium but I hope I will be able to integrate it in my playing. If I remember correctly my first teacher sort of tried to obtain it by sustaining wy wrist from under. I guess it was pretty much the same thing (induced artificially) but I wasn't able to maintain it as I couldn't perceive and understand what and why I was doing what I was doing."
Yeah, I think this is why this approach has helped me so much. It's a very simple and completely rational way of understanding what creates balance- with regard to both of the primary factors that are involved. I spent a lot of time both resting on the top of my hand and other times I would come underneath and lightly nudging it upwards (and have also done both with various students). Both led to a lot of instinctive improvement, but I still didn't really have a point of understanding- from which I could easily solve problems when they came back in. In particular changing to a different piano with a different weight of action could throw things all over the place again. In a lesson (in which i played hopelessly, to the point where it really was quite embarassing) a teacher asked why my wrist kept drifiting up? At this time i'd been doing alot of touching the underside of the hand. He told me to weigh it down. Hardly spectacular advice in itself, but this was what finally prompted the realisation that is has nothing to do with thinking up more or down more, but that i needed to know what actually leads to balance. If your subconscious doesn't kick in automatically, you're basically back to a guessing game where you simply hope to find what feels right. That is, unless you have conscious understanding of how balance can be restored, when it doesn't come by itself.
"The thing I consider the most difficult is being able to distinguish between seeking for a downward force and just letting the gravity to act. I think this is the key of my problem. At least for the stage I am at this moment."
It's still a big issue for me too. I'm trying to use gravity to act against rather than use pushes in even loud rapid chords. I'm attempting to avoid any pushing at all in the chords before the coda of Chopin's 4th Ballade, but simply energise the fingers against the weight. However, at speed, it's very easy to start straining inwards again, the moment balance is slightly lost. The same applies in loud finger work. As soon as I stop feeling the balance, I end up fighting the return forces, instead of releasing into them. In the past, I definitely did push to replace finger activity, but I feel sure that's not the case now. The fingers are activating, but emergencey pushes are to stop the return forces from knocking me away. i'm having to do a lot of work in short bursts, to try to stop that seized up state every kicking in- where you stop releasing gravity in balance with the fingers and instead start simultaneously holding back gravity too much, but also pushing inwards. I can balance very comfortably and consistently in slow to moderate paced work now, but integrating it into really fast playing of a whole etude, say, is a lot harder. It's so easy to simply think of downward forces, instead of remember that gravitational forces stem from release at the wrist and elbow. I think that's makes it vital to be patient with how you build up.
"I will buy some wrist weights in the next days. I am very curious how this helps."
Let us know how you find it. I'd try it mostly for slow arm movements away from the piano, but it might be interesting to just spend a few seconds at a time playing very slowly and noticing what feels different- both in the hand and at the shoulder. You can also rest a tiny amount of weight on the back of your hand by using the other arm to rest on it, by the way, for a similar effect. That way, the added weight only works the hand a little more.
"Very efficient. Is this the finger action school? But some tension still remains. Maybe that's because I can't play the song faster than 40bpm yet. And an offtopic: how short should the staccato be? Half of the value of the note? It sounds odd at this slow speed but I hope it'll be allright once I will be able to play the song in tempo."
Very roughly half. However, consider that some staccatos should just be felt as short, regardless of tempo. If you feel yourself resting at the keybed, the physical action may not even be related to what happens at speed. It's worth doing some practise where you pull quite sharply and let yourself bounce away at once. Don't make any effort to remain on the key. It's even worth pulling yourself up a little with the arm, to help the force repel you- like going with current in the sea. Practise putting your hand on a table and sharply pull back from the knuckles. Your whole arm should bounce up. It's the same at a piano. Don't fight the force that comes back at you. Just realise what it does, before you start trying to counter it. Once you understand it, proportioned release of weight can be even more effective than pushing through it. But first you need to be totally sure that you are not fighting it even one bit.
When the arch gets more collapsed the hand begins to feel heavy again. It is more difficult to keep the wrist loose in this position. If I would exagerate I would say that collapsing the arch makes you feel almost like playing a new instrument. The distances change...the whole feeling changes. I feel very uncomfortable in this position. I can never imagine playing a scale or a Hanon drill in this position. The thumb seems almost impossible to be used(it cannot reach the white keys without getting the other fingers too far between the black keys where they cannot pull nor slide). More than that the fingers now have to play between the black keys and my fingers are slim but they just get stuck in the space between any 2 black keys. I cannot say that I am not able to move in that space but making any kind of move in there is very difficult without accidentaly playing the adjacent keys.
I don't know if this has anything to do with my attempt to lower the arch but I noticed that when playing at slow speed the shoulders sometimes go up and forward. I don't know if this was already present and now I just noticed the problem or the problem was caused by lowering the wrist. Now even in pronounced position at certain drills and pieces my shoulders go totally loose then when learning new material or practicing already learned passages with adding a new task(counting aloud, playing it from the sheet) my shoulders get tense again. I even noticed the shoulder of the opposite hand going very stiff when I practiced hands separately and used the other hand (which...strangely enough was functioning fairly well).
So the feeling should be the same even at a slow speed, right? What exactly do you reffer to when saying that I have to let myself to bounce away at once? You mean....not taking in consideration the duration of the staccato and just seek for that "repelling" feeling? Anyway I observe that this is at least as difficult as trying not to counter the fall after the repell.
And regarding the wrist weights. I found very very many models. Is 0.5 kg/wrist enough?
