Problems With 3rds

Have been practicing Chopin's Op 69 No 2 and after a few months I can play most of the parts in tempo. Being primarily a guitar player I think that my problem has something to do with the fact that the right hand is just a picking hand, the left one being the hand that frets the notes. Nevermind... After a few months of trying to implement both Alan's and Andrew's approach, my playing has improved but my right hand keeps making me problems. I am almost sure that both of the hands are doing the same thing now but I have to think their movement differently which is extremely annoying and a hindering. I have to concentrate always on extending the fingers of the RH as this side had (and still has) the problem that Andrew described in one of his posts..."There's a hole in my bucket" if I'm not wrong. Alan's pulling approach was not enough for my right side. I began studying this waltz by Chopin somewhere in November and the passages containing the 3rds from that modulation seemed impossible. I can play them now but not at 120 bpm as I wished...after a few weeks of study I could play them at half of the tempo...now I can play (or better said stumble with) them at 120 but they are not clear. I think that that 50 g theory now became 100 g theory as 2 fingers need to activate 2 keys at the same time. Should I keep practicing the piece at a slow tempo as I did until now and wait for...say...another month to see some improvements? How can I find the proper amount of weight needed to activate the keys and keep the structure stable and connected with the keyboard at the same time? There are times when playing these 3rds makes my RH bounce and times when I feel that the weight is too intense to let the fingers act as levers.

Being primarily a guitar player I think that my problem has something to do with the fact that the right hand is just a picking hand, the left one being the hand that frets the notes. Nevermind... This part grabbed my attention, as I'm a guitarist too (though piano was my first instrument). I've been noticing recently just how much precision and control can go into the picking hand. For finger-pickers there's a great deal of accuracy required, plus the whole issue of voicing well. For plectrum users there's a very different type of accuracy, but there's also the issue of how much to grip the plectrum, which is becoming, to me, a whole world worth exploring in itself. Perhaps if you spend more time exploring in detail what your picking hand is doing at the guitar it might improve at the piano? How can I find the proper amount of weight needed to activate the keys and keep the structure stable and connected with the keyboard at the same time? There are times when playing these 3rds makes my RH bounce and times when I feel that the weight is too intense to let the fingers act as levers. Have you ever done Alan's exercise of holding the notes and slowly growing and letting the arch down? Or the sliding one? I just started to really understand those recently and they are, for me, so important for connecting to the keyboard.

@ Without giving you any specific technical instructions about types of movement, I have the following tip for you. Whenever I have problems in one hand, I use my other hand to solve them. Here's how: the right hand thirds with your left hand and see what you can learn from that. Imagine that on the central D, you can put a mirror and the picture of black and white both ways (right and left, up and down) is the same. Your hands/fingers are also mirrored, so you will quickly get the hang of it. Here's the scheme of mirroring keys for quick orientation: A => G B => F C => E D => D (stays the same) E => C F => B G => A F#/Gb => Bb/A# Ab/G# => G#/Ab (stays the same) Bb/A# => F#/Gb C#/Db => Eb/D# Eb/D# => C#/Db An A chord in one hand, for example, becomes a Cm chord in the other. An A major scale from tonic to tonic will be E flat from g to g. A series of thirds like C-Eb, C#-E, D-F (going up with the right hand) becomes C#-E, C-Eb, B-D (going down with the left hand). Mirror the fingers appropriately so the same finger combination comes on the same black/white structure. This is a fun way to practise and works for both hands. I wouldn't play the hands together, though, because it doesn't sound very nice. Also: thirds contain not only mechanical problems, but neurological ones as well (they are difficult to coordinate). That's why you are well advised to practice very, very slowly, trusting nature and without "trying" too often for speed (it is really too early to do that). Play one third, "standing" on your fingers and stay there at least for 5 seconds. Only then walk on to the next third and do the same. EDIT: I'd like to add that the system of practising (first part of my post) is called "symmetrical inversion". The great Godowsky solved ALL his problems like this, and a contemporary pianist who uses this system extensively is Hamelin. See this link for more info: Paul

An approach I've found valuable lately is to bang the surface of the keys as sharply and violently as possible without actually moving them far enough to produce sound. Aim to be as loose as possible when swinging the hand down and try to feel how the fingers must respond to keep their structure- but only at the moment that they contact the keys. Don't brace in anticipation. This approach focusses the activity which the fingers need to make against the keys, in order to avoid collapse during depression. I have problems especially on double notes, but this gets the fingers to bond with the keys better. When you're used to properly standing against the key's resistance before moving it, it's simply a matter of lengthening the finger in continuation of the same activity it's already involved in. the arm should never be at risk of falling if the fingers are already primed against that resistance

One helpful way for all practice (or performance) is to focus on voices, that is concentrating on and hearing one (your choice) while excluding others hands together or not.And then concentrating on another one and so on. It will force you to be conscious of otherwise "hidden" notes and patterns/progressions.In fact I beleive this lack of knowing what you play is one important reason for f...-ups @ showtime. You might have played some keys a million times without ever "hearing" them. A good knowledge of intervals always helps. I guess Ganz and Godowskys symmetric inversion is one step further it really forces you to work with the brain. Tried it, I beleive it's the # one best method to practice but my God how tiresome for the brain. Anyway working with the above on thirds does help a lot. So for example playing C major in thirds I would "hear" the following keys (2nd row): 12,13,24,35,13,24,35, 2, 3,2 , 3, 3, 4,3, Any combination is possible. The most obviuos is of course upper and lower voices.

Some random thoughts. 1) One factor that makes passages in double notes more "difficult" then any other types of technique is that you need patience, lots of patience. Growth cannot be forced. After all, it is finger technique "squared", so the finger technique in "simple" passages (especially trills) should already be very well developed. 2) Rhytmic variations in the two voices combined as indicated in the screenshot I added from Cortot's notorious exercises help a great deal. 3) For me during slow practice, lifting the fingers (rather high and relatively straight) and swinging them into the key (coming down curved) was the key for a breakthrough in development with lasting results. Needless to say, you need activity, not force while doing this. 4) Sometimes, proper phrasing, grouping, shaping of a passage may lead to unexpectedly good results. 5) Beautiful legato in passages with thirds depends on physical and strict legato in one of the voices only. Needles to say that this has enormous technical consequences. Paul

In the past I stumbled on to symmetrical inversion myself, but didn't really realise the potential inherent within such practice. Now that I realise that it's the perfect opportunity to notice the lack of symmetry of function between the hands. I've actually considered trying this with the guitar - turning the guitar round and practising left handed as well as right. Paul's point above about legato double notes only requiring one legato voice is of great significance. I've been messing around with the double fourths at the beginning of the Heroic Polonaise and practising with only one legato voice has clarified how the passage works for me.

the right hand thirds with your left hand and see what you can learn from that. Imagine that on the central D, you can put a mirror and the picture of black and white both ways (right and left, up and down) is the same. Your hands/fingers are also mirrored, so you will quickly get the hang of it. Here's the scheme of mirroring keys for quick orientation: Paul A very obvious thing. Well...not quite so obvious as I had to use this method to bring the problem to surface. The pull from the left hand fingers somehow manages to make the extension Andrew is talking about come by itself. This isn't happening in the right hand. Digital pianos with escapement or even better acoustic pianos help my right hand to function almost as good as the left one. I don't know why. The last time I played an acoustic I can remember being able to play all the things aprox 20 % faster and of course with more ease. The keyboards with escapement help my hand to float PS This is also happening when typing on different types of keyboard. It's obvious that now when the drills and the scales go better the passages in double notes go too. I can remember last year trying to play Hanon faster than 60 bpm without ruining the legato and constantly failing. Now the drills go slightly better but however being able to play trills even at slow tempo is for the moment out of my reach.