L_egatoplaying

Hi! Recently I visited a masterclass (as audience) with one of the finer Russian masters. All participants had one thing in common, no rythm, no legato and all covered up by the pedal. The cure for this as pointed out is practising legato WITHOUT the pedal and than learn to use the pedal as an embellishment not as coverup. Probably a very common problem. I like the "Fraser-legato" and I am eager to practise it even more after this masterclass. This legato can't obviously be done all the time as you can only strech to a certain limit especially with small hands. So you have to do another legato which in a way is just the opposite holding a key and than move very fast to the next one. I'm of course talking about musically motivated legati. Now my (silly) question is to what extent do you use legati? Take the 4th page of the Chopin Ballade #4. Here you have a melody played pretty much by the 5th so this legato has to be made by changing keys very quickly and keep the key down. The accompagnement could to a certain degree be played with a "Fraserlegato"while having the pinky holding and jumping. Same thing applies to the base. When looking at the scores it's amazing to see for example Chopins or Griesg's pedal marks.But trying this legatoplaying without pedal it starts to make sense. I'm buzy writing today must have been all the cofee... Eric

Hi! Now my (silly) question is to what extent do you use legati? Take the 4th page of the Chopin Ballade #4. Here you have a melody played pretty much by the 5th so this legato has to be made by changing keys very quickly and keep the key down. The accompagnement could to a certain degree be played with a "Fraserlegato"while having the pinky holding and jumping. Eric Which bit? Are you talking abou the 2nd variation on the theme or the bit with repeated G flats in the right hand? Bear in mind that if you have to release a key anyway, there's not necessarily any benefit in moving more quickly to the next one. Personally, I suspect that the greatest benefits of legato playing (except for that in which the notes are audibly overlapped) are not necessarily from the lack of gaps between sound. Otherwise, why play legato when pedalling? It's just that the physical motion on connecting two notes is likely to produce a smooth sound, from the greater physical efficiency. If you catch a long note on the pedal and release the key slowly (after having properly felt control over the note in the first place- ie. not having 'snatched' away from the note) there is no rational reason that I'm aware of, why a legato should be any less obtainable. I think Neuhaus mentions this in the Art of piano. Think how Horowitz voices the first statement of the melody in the Stars and Stripes! I've rarely heard such beautiful legato sound. However, if you are determined to hold onto a note as long as possible, there is every danger that the act of trying to move very quickly to the next one will reduce the control of that sound. Sometimes there's simply no need to worry about holding when you are catching a long sound on the pedal. The best legato sounds come when you simply ensure the optimum balance over the notes, before striking them. As long as you have genuinely controlled the sound before release, it's doesn't particularly matter how long the notes are physically held. There are some interesting films of Volodos, where he makes completely legato recitatives, but plays every single note with the arm- through the third finger. It looks a little broken up visually, but it sounds supremely legato- because of the sheer control over the tone.

Thank's for your reply. What I'm trying to do is playing completely without pedal for a while I beleive it will sharpen up the control of sounds and the "pedalawareness" so I just have to make those "jumps" to obtain something similar to a legato.Normally I play just as you describe but I do use legato pretty much even when pedaling. Catching up with the pedal will coulor the striked key with every string in the piano and sometimes you don't want that. Playing legato while pedaling should be useless as you say but I think I can hear the difference ecpecially in faster playing I don't know why.

Thank's for your reply. What I'm trying to do is playing completely without pedal for a while I beleive it will sharpen up the control of sounds and the "pedalawareness" so I just have to make those "jumps" to obtain something similar to a legato.Normally I play just as you describe but I do use legato pretty much even when pedaling. Catching up with the pedal will coulor the striked key with every string in the piano and sometimes you don't want that. Playing legato while pedaling should be useless as you say but I think I can hear the difference ecpecially in faster playing I don't know why. It's largely about what inspires the best control though. If you're have short notes, you are inevitably going to have less control over the keys and less time to settle upon the key before release. That's why physical joining is usually best for faster passages, when possible. A 'snatched' sound is always likely if you would have to let go almost instantly. As long you do indeed settle down on a key before release, however, trying to get to the following keys quickly can sometimes be rather dangerous to the impression of legato. You need to be comfortable when striking the following notes and trying to hold on to notes longer than is required can make that less likely (without necessarily benefitting the sustain of the former). Take the C minor prelude by Chopin. There' simply no purpose to trying to hold onto the chords any longer than it takes to control the sound in the first place. I really wouldn't want to feel that I have to move quickly to each new chord. It's much easier to give a legato sound by leaving plenty of time to line up before striking. There are many such cases when holding as long as possible and then moving quickly will not actually contribute more legato. At times, it could just sacrifices fluency and control of movement. Which passage are you actually talking about in the Ballade though? Different editions have all different layouts with regard to pages. Are you referring to the passage with the left hand counterpoint in octaves or the 2nd variation on the main melody in F minor? In the former, I would say that trying to move quickly between the right hand chords (after holding them as long as physically possible) would do more harm than good. You often see great pianists using a 'tenuto' touch for such passages, with enormous physical gaps to prepare for the following notes. Is that the spot you mean though?

I mean from bar 58 just an example which I know is particulary nasty. I agree, to "jump" is something I wouldn't dare to do if there was an audience but still it might be a good practise. I read somewhere else in the forum that holding -then jumping -then position the finger and then press down was recommended. That's maybe a better legatopractise. This sequence apart, legatoplay is not that difficult and really adds to this ballade it's indispensable even. As I have big hands I've become lazy and I beleive people with small hands does handle legato much better as they have to cope with all the time. Then and now I've had the occasion to play on the 19th century instruments, Erard,Pleyel etc and that's always been a pleasent experience.You still find quite a lot of them in europe especially in france as Erard started the assemblyline before Ford.If you ever visit Amsterdam go and see "Maison Erard" with Fritz Janmaat who restores these fine instruments. Playing legato on these is much much easier and I think that the key's are slightly smaller as well. One problem for pianists is that you hear something different from what the audience does. My impression is that producing legato with the pedal is not that effective in a big hall and covering up doesn't work at all. I've alway's felt a certain anguish before entering that 58th bar in the ballade...And releif at 68! By the way I've started to enter some broken hands here and there after the last discussion and that's a clear improvement. Eric

"One problem for pianists is that you hear something different from what the audience does. My impression is that producing legato with the pedal is not that effective in a big hall and covering up doesn't work at all." It all depends though. It's simply not the case that letting go of the notes must necessarily impact legato. Losing control of the sound is what really matters and that can be heard whether the pedal is down or not. If letting go were always a bad thing, it wouldn't be possible to play countless melodies with the impression of legato. As I recall, Liszt marks the B major transformation of the melody in the 2nd Ballade with only thumbs. That doesn't prevent legato sound. Necessitating full use of the arm on each note actually offers more control of the tone, than worrying about connecting less naturally sonorous fingers would permit. Personally, I used to use tenuto touch virtually all the time in legato melodies- in order to help with the feeling of the arm's support. I've since realised that (having since learned to use my fingers a little better) I can also get the arm behind literal finger connections. However, a lot of great pianists use the non-legato touch for completely legato sounds. It often provides a more distinct touch, without compromising tonal continuity. Although I'm no longer forced to separate to get control, I still use this a lot. In the Peters edition of Scriabin's music, the editor points out how it's often the case that legato touch combined with legato pedalling produces a lot of blurring. However, if you use non-legato touch with the pedal, he says that you can maintain clarity without compromising the impression of legato. This is an extremely interesting thing to practise. It's often surprising how much more pedal can be used, when you experiment with non-legato fingerwork. It's not always about covering up for sloppiness in the fingers. "I've alway's felt a certain anguish before entering that 58th bar in the ballade...And releif at 68!" If you want a good tip for that kind of passage, simply practise playing the accompaniment with a very short staccato, while maintaining an overwhelmingly strong sense of connection to the upper notes. You need to go absurdly slow though, to feel the benefits. This leaves the hand with no choice but to properly rest on the melody notes, without feeling any real weight resting on the lesser notes. When you go back to normal legato, you should find it becomes hugely easier to control the voicing. It's teaches the hand how to deploy the weight where its needed, rather than to notes that should be kept from getting in the way too much. This is the best exercise for producing tonal distinction between a melody an accompaniment that I know of. It helps loads in etudes like op. 10 no. 3 and op. 25 no. 1. "By the way I've started to enter some broken hands here and there after the last discussion and that's a clear improvement." Good stuff! I'd never be afraid of trying these things. Personally, I particularly like to delay the right hand after the ends of phrase marks. If a melody is going to properly breathe, I don't see why the flow of the left hand must necessarily be broken to correspond.

There are some interesting films of Volodos, where he makes completely legato recitatives, but plays every single note with the arm- through the third finger. It looks a little broken up visually, but it sounds supremely legato- because of the sheer control over the tone. That does sound interesting! Any place we can see them?

Thank's for the tips! I've found that holding your hands like Alan does when showing the rotation part with la Campanella (octave with 2nd and 5th) can be useful in this particular passage. But your suggestion "tapping" the accopaniement is probably the best way to work this out.

The answer is in Arnold Schultz, The Riddle of the Pianist's Finger, which I have conveniently quoted in full on page 18-19 of The Craft of Piano Playing.

Sorry to be so late in jumping in here - the short answer is, "You are both right." It is a complex issue and ALL the different solutions you two have been so brilliantly describing have their application. Again I repeat, learn to do it in each of those ways, then you have CHOICE, both technical and artistic. In my own practice I tend to lean slightly towards Eric's way of working - there is less chance to gloss things over when you really ensure you CAN play legato. I have written about this at length in my book: one primary benefit of cultivating a true, absolute physical legato is NOT so that you dogmatically use it everywhere you can, but so that the IMAGE is there as a neurological template to be referred to. Often a true physical legato will hamper you, but the image of exact, ultimately smooth transition from one note to the next that a true physical legato creates in our neurology is invaluable. You need to create the sense of absolute security and stability in the hand. When the hand "knows" this all-important feeling, it can make legato sounds whether it has the opportunity to actually join or not. Lose the sense of secure (and ironically, floating) foundation in the hand, and your legato sound is soon gone too. For that passage in the 4th Ballade - a little pianistic secret: if you ever have a passage in double notes, if you play only one of the voices legato, they will both legato. So here I play the inner voice more or less legato ( I don't get dogmatic about it but try to let my fingers feel as if they are swimming in a kind of 'legato soup' squished in amongst all those close keys) while letting the top voice sing without bothering to join its notes physically - that would cramp me and cramp my sound as well. Also see my blog (if my administrator ever gets it back online) where I write about Kemal's "totally non-legato touch for legato sound" lesson he gave me 2 summers ago... Nice dialogue going on here! AFF