Hanon's Tremolo

Can somebody tell me how to be no pain in your hand while playing hanons tremolo excercise,because my problem is when i finished one page,the idk things(cause im no doctor) in my hands starts to aching and let me feel pain!

I think the aching is about relaxingbproblem,so can anyone tell me how to be so relax that will be no pain in your hand while playing tremolo in hanon?

First of all, who assigned you that exercise? The problem is that it is rather difficult and is based on everything that comes before that in the book. That's what you would think, but actually "relaxing" will not help very much. It is wiser to find a way of moving a key that helps you find the right activity for what you need to do. The body will then "relax" everything that is not needed in the act. First of all, to move a key, I would advise you to use this movement from the knuckle: Copyright Andrew Thayer from his blog: If you follow the movement of your finger in the direction of the arrow (diagonally forward into the key), you will see that the movement is initiated from the hand knuckle, but the other joints lengthen themselves. This will give you excellent control over the key. If you feel you need an explanation of why that is true, read Andrew's blog. Do this very GENTLY and very SOFTLY. Do not press with the arm onto your hand and do not try to press the key through the keybottom. As soon as you can do this for all the fingers (slowly and softly, remember!), work with 2 fingers and do exactly the same. As soon as you can do it with 2 fingers simultaneously, take 3 etc. When you feel you are ready, you can take the notes of the Hanon and do the same there. Most importantly: DO NOT RUSH THIS! It is an exercise in awareness. You need to train the nervous system, not your muscles! P.S.1: The "wrist oscillations" Hanon talks about, which is actually forearm rotation, will take care of themselves if you let them. The underlying needed skill, though, is the finger movement. P.S.2: I hope this makes sense. If it doesn't, ask questions. Maybe somebody else will step in to do a better job of explaining the issue. Paul

If you follow the movement of your finger in the direction of the arrow (diagonally forward into the key), you will see that the movement is initiated from the hand knuckle, but the other joints lengthen themselves. This will give you excellent control over the key. If you feel you need an explanation of why that is true, read Andrew's blog. Do this very GENTLY and very SOFTLY. Do not press with the arm onto your hand and do not try to press the key through the keybottom. As soon as you can do this for all the fingers (slowly and softly, remember!), work with 2 fingers and do exactly the same. As soon as you can do it with 2 fingers simultaneously, take 3 etc. When you feel you are ready, you can take the notes of the Hanon and do the same there. Most importantly: DO NOT RUSH THIS! It is an exercise in awareness. You need to train the nervous system, not your muscles! I want to add on to this (All of which I agree with most enthusiastically) with an illustrative video clip and a comment about the graphic. The best video I've found showing this type of finger operation during actual performance is ; you can see this clearly in the left hand at 2:07 and 2:57. Andrew's image depicts the wrist and the metacarpal joint at the same height relative to each other. This has a special significance regarding dynamics - see , particularly the second post. P.S.1: The "wrist oscillations" Hanon talks about, which is actually forearm rotation, will take care of themselves if you let them. The underlying needed skill, though, is the finger movement. Paul While agreeing with your third point, here I object in the strongest imaginable way to the first two. Admittedly, the term 'forearm rotation' is somewhat ambiguous. There are different ways of rotating the forearm. However, what I believe most people will think of when this is referred to is a type of motion where everything above the elbow could be considered stationary, and the radius of the forearm would circumscribe about the ulna (Either pronating or supinating). I do not think this is a biomechanically optimal way of playing the passage that the original poster mentioned; and furthermore not how people that have been recognized elsewhere on this forum as having optimal or near-optimal piano technique play these types of passages. My first disagreement can be evidenced through a simple experiment. Let us presume for the moment (This may be an unwarranted presumption, but let's assume not) that my anatomy and physiology is not very highly divergent from that of anyone else on this forum. Place one of your hands on the bicep of the opposite arm. Now rotate the forearm in the way that I described above. You can feel that this motion is primarily driven by the bicep. Let us now observe these two video clips of other pianists playing tremolos: : Starting at :50. : Starting at :08 and continuing afterwards. What can be observed here is that the arm motion in question is not the type of forearm rotation I elucidated above. It is a type of whole-arm rotation. More precisely, if you imagine an axis between the shoulder and somewhere near the wrist, the arm oscillates back and forth about this axis rapidly. If the elbow joint is flexed, the elbow will be furthest from the axis, and hence its motion is the largest. Because of this, I encourage you to watch the above clips with special attention payed to the motion of the elbows. Then what makes these videos most illustrative is that you can directly observe that the size and rapidity of the movement corresponds with the dynamic level and tempo. As the tremolo crescendos, the oscillation becomes larger. As the tremolo accelerates, the oscillation becomes faster. Based on the information from , this involves the more powerful deltoid and teres muscle groups. My disagreement with p2u's second point is based on my own experience with 2/3 trills, which requires the same kind of movement, albeit with a different distribution of work between the fingers and the arm. I was able to do the trill well enough with my right hand, not so with the left. After an extended period of observation, and making generous use of a mirror, I determined the arm rotation just described was occurring automatically during right hand trills, and nothing similar was happening with the left hand. After copying this motion with my left arm, eventually the trill improved to the same quality as with my right. Here is another experiment you can try: get a friend who has never investigated this subject to pour you a cup of coffee, using the right hand and then the left. Don't mention anything about forearm rotation or elbows, but watch them carefully. I predict you will observe results similar to what was just described. I think the key to the exercise mentioned in the first post is achieving the exact balance between the finger motion described above by Andrew and p2u and the arm motion I describe here. Also, playing it evenly requires making sure those notes that occur on downbeats fit properly into the rhythmic hierarchy (I know Alan discussed rhythmic hierarchies in his first book.) Finally, we are all aware here that every single word written on this forum is analyzed and studied meticulously, and that our previous debates on these topics have been known to cause pedagogical schisms within the pianistic universe. Challenging the nature of a topic such as forearm rotation, which is of central significance in many technical pedagogical systems, will undoubtedly cause greatest controversy and division the same way the arm weight debate has in the past - and in the same manner as the arm weight debate, I anticipate the discussion will lead to deeper insight and facility to all involved.

There are some interesting points here, but I have to say that I personally feel that your analysis of the upper arm slightly misses the point. If you hold the elbow dead straight upper arm rotation can indeed run down the whole arm to the wrist. However rather than oscillate the upper arm rapidly, now do it with slow and big movements and start bending the elbow. Before too long, you'll find that it just makes a mess and no longer gets passes on in a meaningful way to the wrist. It stops turning the wrist at all and sends the forearm all over the place instead- in the kind of path of motion you'd see in an arm wrestle. As further evidence, try holding the elbow in against the side and doing a tremolo with rotation. It slightly hampers it, but only very slightly. I believe that what you perceive in the upper arm is actually a passive response and not an instigation of movement. A free upper arm will (and should) wobble in response to rotation in the forearm. A pianist who sits extremely high can rotate the whole arm by lengthening it right out, but I cannot see any objective way in which the upper arm can instigate even a jot of wrist rotation, in a traditional pianistic posture. I think it's just an issue of whether you allow reactions to flown freely back up the arm or whether you shut them off by locking up. Even when the whole arm turns, it may very well be that forearm rotation goes back and turns the upper arm. If I rotate my forearm with a bent wrist and gradually straighten, at a certain point my upper arm starts turning too- without any change in the intent behind the movement. This doesn't prove that my forearm continues to be the instigator, but it does make it worth wondering. After a certain point the same ongoing movement could naturally spill into the rest of the arm. I can't rotate my upper arm fast in other alignments, so my suspicion is that it's more forearm turning upper arm than vice versa. Also, I don't believe Paul is saying not to practise active rotation. It's an important step to first instigate it yourself, before allowing it to become a more passive response to movement elsewhere- which may ultimately become a similar thing to how the upper arm responds passively to the reactions of forearm rotation.

While agreeing with your third point, here I object in the strongest imaginable way to the first two. Admittedly, the term 'forearm rotation' is somewhat ambiguous. There are different ways of rotating the forearm. However, what I believe most people will think of when this is referred to is a type of motion where everything above the elbow could be considered stationary, and the radius of the forearm would circumscribe about the ulna (Either pronating or supinating). I merely used the term "forearm rotation" to replace Hanon's even more ambigious and I would say rather dangerous (because injury-prone) "wrist oscillations". I am well aware that different types of rotation exist. I am less interested, though, in the details of where it is all generated anatomically. I believe that active fingertips at a certain speed simply invoke the right kind and amount of rotation if the arm is well balanced. P.S.: The kind of CLASSICAL tremolo I was talking about (I don't believe Hanon's exercise should be played in a romantic style a la Liszt) can be seen in this clip by Pletnev 24 minutes in: Paul

I thought about this awhile and came to the conclusion that what you say is true if the axis of rotation remains parallel with the upper arm. In the motion I am referring to this is specifically NOT the case - the axis of rotation is the ray between the shoulder joint and a point near the wrist. For the sake of example, I am going to say the point is exactly midway between the wrist joint and the knuckle of the middle finger (Since this is certainly very close). I know from reading your blog you know plenty about physics and geometry, so consider that the circumferential displacement is the product of the angular displacement and the radius of rotation. Since the fingers that actually contact the keys are very close to this point (Compared to the elbow) rotation about this axis does not cause them to move so far that they no longer reach the intended keys. Look carefully at the Richter video - his elbow flails around in exactly the way you describe, but his fingers stays on their keys. A pianist who sits extremely high can rotate the whole arm by lengthening it right out, but I cannot see any objective way in which the upper arm can instigate even a jot of wrist rotation, in a traditional pianistic posture. I am going to have to call you out on this, because you appear to do exactly what I describe from 1:05 to 1:08 (As well as other places) in this video . What is your impression of what you are doing there ? Are you rotating your forearm and letting the upper arm be 'rotated by the forearm', are you moving your fingers and letting whatever else wants to join in do so ? Or are you just considering musical forms and letting your mechanism do whatever it wants to realize them ? I merely used the term "forearm rotation" to replace Hanon's even more ambigious and I would say rather dangerous (because injury-prone) "wrist oscillations". I am well aware that different types of rotation exist. I am less interested, though, in the details of where it is all generated anatomically. I agree with you that 'wrist oscillations' is an unhelpful term. The reason I've suggested 'forearm rotation' is equally as bad is because I believe it encourages people to cultivate technique that completely eschews use of the upper arm, when it is clear from videos that virtuoso technique involves some amount of use of the upper arm. Do you and cziffra (Or anyone else reading) agree with this viewpoint, and if so, do you agree with me that it is a problem significant enough to be worth addressing ? I believe that active fingertips at a certain speed simply invoke the right kind and amount of rotation if the arm is well balanced. P.S.: The kind of CLASSICAL tremolo I was talking about (I don't believe Hanon's exercise should be played in a romantic style a la Liszt) can be seen in this clip by Pletnev 24 minutes in: Paul What would you diagnose in my own particular case, where I was unable to satisfactorily play any passage of this form with my left hand, before discovering and applying the movement that my right had performed automatically? I am not disagreeing with you and cziffra that once the movement (Of whichever anatomical system performs it) is learned and internalized, there is no need to constantly pay undue attention to it. I am strictly contending that it must in some cases be necessary (In particular, I suspect, when one hand is much weaker than the other) to identify and learn the lacking motion, and then integrate it into the overall technique, instead of expecting in all cases for it to be something that can be 'invoked' by solving another problem (In this case, 'active fingertips', which I think we might all agree is the same thing as what is described in the blog post earlier). P.S.: How do you distinguish between this particular tremolo played in classical or romantical style? Application of rubato, pedal, some type of melodic accentuation ? Or a particular tremolo exercise written by Liszt he had studied Hanon? Also why would you not want to play it in every different style you can imagine ? (Paraphrasing what Alan Fraser often says on these forums, exercises are tools to teach our hands and minds as wide a range of possible techniques for making different sounds as possible, that we can use later.)

I will just speak for myself, OK? Of course you are right about the body working as an integrated whole, and certain parts of the body can and should be worked out separately, but preferably not at the instrument. Whenever I get new students, first thing is to send them to the gym. Besides, I also tell them that you play from the stomach and that you need very strong legs to be able to play the piano. People who are paralyzed after a stroke are usually paralyzed at the SHOULDER level, not in the hands. Guess what? No shoulder power, - no finger activity. I rarely diagnose online because people are just too different for one solution to be the perfect one. I divide the muscles into intelligent ones (the finer coordination of hands and fingers) and not so intelligent ones (the backup force of arms as a whole, shoulder, torso, etc.) I have had people work on their larger muscles more than once, but found out that that is almost always merely to fill in a missing link. The real solution almost always lies in the activity and awareness of the fingers. The sound image dictates what is going to happen. A massive tone to fill a large concert hall with ffff requires more than a ff in some Beethoven sonata in a not so large hall. The body will react accordingly if you let it. That is art. Technical exercises like Hanon's, though, are not about art; it's craft that has to be mastered, and you do that following the instructions given. P.S.: Liszt's "Technical Exercises" are very useful in this respect. Here is a downloadable copy someone posted on another forum: Liszt's instructions are no different from Hanon's, by the way. Even his most dreadful chord exercises are mostly about FINGERS, not about wrists, forearms, and other body parts, which usually take care of themselves. The way the exercises are organized, each previous exercise is the key to the next one. When we go back to the very essence, the only problem according to Franz Liszt is moving one key with one finger, which is not a muscular problem, but a neurological one: kinetic energy into the key, not muscle power. And if we want to put it less extremely: two-finger slurs through all existing keys because of the horizontal element in them (role of the arm) that is the basis for the rest of all possible musical/technical formulas. Paul

I notice that "lion74567" has not gotten back to us... I fear we have scared him off with this inundation of advice, much of it contradictory... Listen, guys, you have been around this forum long enough that you should know: is the underlying concept that is going to give you useful answers to these types of questions. When I read "lion74567's" initial query, the thing that leaps out at me is that he thinks he can relax to solve the pain problem. But in all likelihood the pain derives from not having a structure that's working well for him. 1) So first of all he needs to experience his structure by very simply standing up on it. 2) Then he needs to learn to walk from one finger to another without his structure collapsing. 3) When he learns to walk without his structure collapsing he'll most likely keep it too stiff (like a 1-year old baby walking), so then he has to learn to walk with a viable structure that remains moveable. At that point he will have experienced how a functional structure begets relaxation through the rest of the system - but only as long as he doesn't over-relax the parts that need to be potent. Then he will probably already be able to do a tremolo OK. You have been discussing trills with all sorts of arm rotation at length: I can trill with no rotation at all anywhere in my arm. Why, because my structure is working for me. If you are paying attention to your arm rotation in a trill you may well be neglecting the fundamental issue: are your fingers working potently? AFF PS Andrew's diagram about the direction of the finger movement into the key, where the finger unfolds, is excellent, but it is only one of many possible solutions. How do you know, Andrew, that it's the one for "lion74567?"

Actually, , it was me who gave Andrew's movement. I'll try to explain why. 1) When I read 's post, I suddenly got a vision of typical Asian hands and fingers: not just a little collapse here and there, but major collapse - very weak hand bridge and buckling "knees". Andrew's movement prevents any collapse whatsoever anywhere; 2) This movement uses both interosseous and lumbrical muscles with maximum independence for the fingers. No conflicts caused by undue tension in opposing muscle groups; 3) This movement gives great sensitivity to differences in key resistance/weight; 4) I also gave instructions about doing this movement gently, softly and slowly in the hope the poster would get rid of his/her "strike-the-key-as-hard-as-you-can-and-then-relax" approach, which I think is the cause of suffering in this particular case. P.S.: Of course, you always hope that the advice helps and that posters spread the good news about how qualified the help is you get on this Internet resource, etc. General talk about function and structure didn't seem like the right thing to do at that time. Intuition. Paul