F sharp minor fingering

In any case, there are many nice thoughts here and some new thoughts for me. I never thought of using "simultaneous thumbs" as a basis for scale fingerings although I did notice the thumbs come together in B major and F major... I guess my "unifying principle", if I have any, would be "thumb follows the black note" (I mean, the thumb falls on the first white key after a black note) for the right hand ascending. I think this holds true for virtually all the scales, both sharp and flat keys. For the left hand, in the sharp keys the left mirrors the right hand fingering in contrary motion, for the flat keys it follows the "thumb after black key" rule in descending scales, except for F major. Anybody else think along those lines? AFF I've been thinking a lot about trying to define logical approaches to flat scales. They are the biggest problem area, when trying to categorise scales according to similarity. The thumbs always coming together pattern applies to many (ie. d flat major and B flat minor, as well as G flat major and E flat minor). However, E flat and B flat are unique, in terms of how the two hands relate to each other (A flat, however, can simply be related to the standard 3 4 3, if both hands are mentally pictured between the Cs, rather than from the tonic). I think these are some of the hardest for students to co-ordinate the hands together (along with G sharp minor) when starting off. Everything else I can think of fits in with one of the two main mental patterns- 343 or thumbs always together (except F sharp minor, for which I ignore the 'correct' fingering in favour of the 343). Personally, I always get students to try the exercise of playing C major two octaves (right hand alone) and then adding flats one at a time (still going between Cs though). Someone showed me this years ago and, at the time, I'd never even realised that every scale from C major up to B major (if taken as C flat major) has the r.h. thumbs on C and F (or C and F flats, during the last couple). Also, the fourth finger is always on B flat and the 3 always on E flat. I find this really useful, because if this constant r.h. fingering becomes second nature, it's easy to then focus on the more varied fingerings for the left hand- while the right is hopefully on autopilot, when they are being put together. That's a very good point about turning under black notes in the left. Those left hand flat ones are really hard to put a unifying system to.

Personally, I always get students to try the exercise of playing C major two octaves (right hand alone) and then adding flats one at a time (still going between Cs though). Someone showed me this years ago and, at the time, I'd never even realised that every scale from C major up to B major (if taken as C flat major) has the r.h. thumbs on C and F (or C and F flats, during the last couple). Also, the fourth finger is always on B flat and the 3 always on E flat. I find this really useful, because if this constant r.h. fingering becomes second nature, it's easy to then focus on the more varied fingerings for the left hand- while the right is hopefully on autopilot, when they are being put together. That's a very good point about turning under black notes in the left. Those left hand flat ones are really hard to put a unifying system to. Thank you, this is a very cool way of synthesizing an intellectual and reflexive understanding of scale fingering - nice! Happy New Year! AFF

Sorry to drag a dead thread back from the grave... Regarding the statement that the LH flat scales are hard to unify logically, try this: RH scales with flats have 4th finger on B flat every time, in other words on the first flat according to the key signature. LH scales with flats have the 4th finger on the 4th note, in other words the last flat in the key signature. Example, A flat major: RH 34 123 12 LH 321 4321 Example, D major: RH 123 1234 LH 21 4321 3 To me, this is elegant and easy to remember, provided one thinks in terms of key signatures. It removes the idea of key groups almost entirely, putting all scales, major and minor, into just two simple groups: sharp and flat. (Modify ad hoc for those places in minor scales that don't work this way.) Best for everybody and in all situations? I doubt it. Those with prior exposure to the fingerings printed in the majority of books have a tough time getting past the different-ness of this plan, to even find out if they like it or not.

F sharp minor follows the "thumb follows black key left hand descending, right hand ascending" rule. So it's not unique at all. I like this way of remembering things because I am too stupid to link things to key signatures, it's much easier just to do it in terms of black and white keys. This works for all scales that don't have a C major fingering, so again all scales are divided into only 2 groups vis-a-vis fingering... AFF

F sharp minor follows the "thumb follows black key left hand descending, right hand ascending" rule. So it's not unique at all. I like this way of remembering things because I am too stupid to link things to key signatures, it's much easier just to do it in terms of black and white keys. This works for all scales that don't have a C major fingering, so again all scales are divided into only 2 groups vis-a-vis fingering... AFF I do see your point, but I think I'm looking at a different aspect. If you take my alternative, it means that there are only three scales that don't fit into either the 3-4-3 (ie. normally turn under 3, with 4s only occuring on either side of the thumbs on the key-note or thumbs together (and always together, eg. F major or B major). This leaves only G sharp minor, E flat and B flat (A flat fitting into a normal 3-4-3 if you think of the thumbs together on C). The 'correct' F sharp minor gives a very confusing co-ordination between the hands, where the thumbs never meet up to form a notable point of reference. I can see the sense of turning onto black notes in general, but I like the alternative both for myself and for students. For my own purposes I can do either with at least adequate comfort. However, I honestly feel a little more cramped with the 'correct' fingering, when turning 3 and 2 onto C sharp and D. From the thumb on A the position feels comfortable, but it feels very squashed up from the thumb on B. In particular for students though, I really don't see why the advantage of turning onto a black note should outweight the necessity of such confusing co-ordination between the two hands. If they can play A major, there's simply no reason why this very simply coordination should pose any physical difficulties that strike me as substantial enough to learn a whole new coordination between the two hands (in which the thumbs never meet for any reference points) For that reason, I always teach the A major fingering as standard now. It leaves only 3 exceptions to the two basic coordinations for scale playing. To me, it would make more sense to see the 'correct' fingering as a possible alternative for advances students, rather than a starting point.