Discovering "relax" Playing, What Is Your Advice..

Hi all, and congratulations for this fantastic forum ! I wanted to open a new thread (hoping it's not already created anywhere>I didn't find...) about my pianistic discoveries. In a nutshell, I'm an amateur pianist (I have studied piano in the Belgian Conservatory at high level years ago, though...). My job does not let me much time to practice piano. However, I cannot live without playing, so I manage to play regularly, when possible. After seeing the Ala Fraser's DVD (Craft of Piano) and some other things (Barbara Lister-Sink, ...), I have made a global discovery. Maybe some of you had or have the same behaviour..that' what I wanted to share with you. Without going into too deep movements, etc, I have "felt" that if I play really "relaxed", it's as I could play all I want ! I mean, while practising a piece, I take care to relax the shoulders, the whole body, I insist that I do it in a "whole", not in a dedicated part specially. However, I put some more attention to the shoulders. While doing this, I'm surprised how the music sounds ! It's as if you can do anything (which I cannot do of course). Do you have this feeling ? Things appear as "so simple". Some passages which I always had difficulty with, become really easy. I want to say that I have the impression that in general we might "force" too much and give more than what's needed. The sound becomes nice and the pleasure of playing is faboulous. But I don't know if it's just a feeling or do you also have tis kind of feeling ? Maybe it's a path to correct my bad habits (I think I played more stiffly previously). Now, I'm just discovering this, and it is as a new world to me. Maybe I discovered a correct "basic" piano posture and direction, do you think that it is necessary to "tune" the playing with specific techniques for this piece of this other one ? I mean, is it mandatory to dissecate every movement, because while working a piece, I work on the decontractation and relaxing, repeating and repeating, but not mechanically, but with "body feeling". What do you think about this. Sorry for my bad english. Thanks for all your advices. Jack

Welcome to the forum, Jack, thanks for your thoughtful post. In the last chapter of my latest book I describe playing the Horowitz Steinway and at one point my shoulders simply sagging forward. My 'motor mechanism' seemed to feel the need for this to happen in order to help my hands better cultivate the amazingly precise yet free manner of touching the keys that this wonderful instrument was evoking as if with a will of its own. So I agree with you even though I spend a lot of my time ranting against relaxation. There's a kind of relaxation that undermines your contact with the key, but you seem to be experiencing something that enhances it. I would be interested to know: did this relaxation perhaps happen after you had organized your hand more skeletally for instance as I show in chapters 1 & 2 of the film? AFF

Hi Alan, thank you so much for your quick reply. Honnestly, it's difficult to me to say if this is a consequence of the seeing of your DVD chapters or not, because even after seeing it several times and trying to understand, the behaviour has appeared as suddenly the lasts days. Though, I had already had the feeling months ago, but I changed my mind and begun back to play with wrong habits (i.e. with much "finger" and no real relaxing). But thinking further on, the DVD might have helped in some way. In parallel with other readings and viewing, I'm reading several articles (Dean elder "Pianists at Play" among other) and there are really common topics which are recurrent. As I hear from all those pianists of the past and present, it's mostly unanimous that you have to relax the wrists, the elbows and the shoulders. I remember I saw one interview of Claudio Arrays who said 'you know, your wrists must be very slack, loose" (I don't remember the exact word, but it's this meaning). And he repeated to the reporter "you hear me ? it's very important, relax your wrists". All this seems so EVIDENT, but I think that untill you do not feel it, it's a nonsense. You have to assimilate it. Other, you can just believe it... I can understand your 'ranting' about relaxation, because it might be understood in different ways. Out of my own experience, I tried some kind of relaxation in the past, and the result was quite catastrophic : my playing became absolutely weak and lethargic. (And I remember my teacher in the Conservatory crying out "Articulate the fingers ! Articulate the fingers !". So did I, but unfortunately, after this, I began articulating, but stiff. No arm or shoulder or whatever sensation. It was not my best period I confess)... What I now discover is not this kind of relaxation. And it's difficult to put a name on it, finally. Maybe it's not relaxation. It's a feeling. Any word put on it could be depreciation. Maybe you understand. It's difficult to explain. Is this the reason you don't encourage "relaxation" ? Anyway, when I see your DVD and your playing, I see (and hear) very "economic" movements and to my point of view, a very "relaxed" way of touching the keys. I like how you play the Chopin Nocturne. It's full of round sound and very soft. In one word, no waste. I'm doing this my main philosophy, but I'm not sure I'm in the right way. Of course, economy is not the only thing. Depending on each piece, I have to move more largely, but that's what I'm discovering right now. It's as I re-learn the piano. I would like to always play like this, but I scare it's maybe not what's needed. It's not the first time I doubt you know. Then, when playing in public (friends, etc), I'm (was) often not happy because I could not apply my discoverings. But I think that it is because I have not yet assimilated these new things and somtimes (hazard ?) I could play well, and sometimes not. Now, I want to play well if I want to play well (when I say « well », I mean « as I want to be », not that I have any pretension that I play really well…), and not on the off chance! It's like doing things consciously now. Hopefully my playing can be fixed. Anyway, thanks for your advice Alan (it is amazing how quick you can answer to all the posts so actively, either after many years of this forum. You seem really passionate about piano. Probably because your discoveries changed your way of doing things (not only at the piano). All other participants are welcome to leave your experiences about this possible "discovery". Kind regards. Jack.

Hello Jack, I really like the way you describe your experiences. When I rant relaxation it is against the kind you experienced earlier, that disempowers. But now you seem to be discovering 'skeletal' relaxation that really does improve your connection to the keys, the precision with which you manipulate them, and the free, untrammelled power you can apply to them as needed. I like very much as well your description of the 'assimilation process,' the process of integrating newfound abilities, which most often does not happen overnight... Very accurate to my mind, and very much similar to my own experience. Nice! AFF

Thanks back for your reply Alan. Yesterday I was looking once again your DVD. I have (re)dicovered really interesting things. I really concentrate on your arm/body positions. Your hands are very effective, but seem to caress the keys. In the La Campanella passage, it looks so easy, but it isn't... At teh moment, I try some new repertoire in order to avoid the bad habits from previous pieces to come back. It's a kind of "muscular clean-up" I'm applying on all what I play. I try it even on older repertoire successfully. But I'm alone at home. But it's sufficient for me as I'm not a professional performer anymore. There was just one chapter I did'nt understand in the DVD... Chapter 42, time 56min'21sec with the triceps movements. I though, in the contrary that these muscles should not move... . But I should maybe ask this in another thread. Anyway, I'm glad I'm not alone in my discovery and I'm happy you also had a similar experience, so I do not feel alone. Now, it's up to me to work on this ! All remains to be done. A new approach is born ! Thanks again for your encouragement and keep so passionated and go on with the fine work. Kind regards. Jack

Hi Salante I read your post with great interest! It's funny but when we stop going to a teacher for a while we learn to teach ourselves how to play. Don't get me wrong the craft of piano playing books and DVD have helped in actually confirming and more articulating what I discovered myself AND taught me more! Like you I have found things and talked myself out of them and then gone back to them because it FELT right. In fact what I found myself doing is finding many ways of choreographing my hand positions (being aware of the small movements) when trying to play difficult passages. It all started when I used to think that there must be an economical way of getting around the Chopin Etudes than I was doing in University. My teacher didn't help - she wasnt aware of anything she did as it came natural to her and in fact she couldnt play most of the Chopin Etudes anyhow. She put it down to a small stretch and needing to have a certain type of hand but she was firmly in the finger action school. She teaches in a well known conservatoire in the UK I might add. I then went to a different conservatoire teacher after post graduate study and that was the first time someone had started to make me aware of arm weight! But even then something was not right I felt. Being told to press in deep when playing slow which lightened up when you speed up; also practicing at the lowest metronome mark and gradually move up the tempos. It made me feel mechanical but secure in the keys I suppose. Actually before I went to him the book from Gyorgy Sandor - On piano playing - was my inspiration to find my own solution. What I find useful about the things you describe you have found is that when reading the books you probably have experienced the feelings but had no words to describe. I think its about finding out which feeling (kinesthetic memory) strored in our brain database fits what Alan or any other teacher is talking about. Sometimes words no matter how descriptive they are project a view in our minds of a feeling which may not be exactly what was meant at first. But when you teach yourself with the description in mind you search until naturally you know it feels right and that must be what was meant! Of course its good to go to a teacher who understands the process of aquiring the optimal playing organisation for a student and of course the musical process, but I have to say I'm finding that a hard task to judge who the right teacher is in my country! Actually trying to achieve the feeling of relaxing is a funny thing. I sometimes get a feeling of being so relaxed that I feel really tired and want to sleep!! Especially when doing slow practice. It's hard to concentrate on the music when this happens. Trying to get this relaxation as you say in other situations/times is an enigma to me. When I perform I doubt I'm relaxed because my adrenalin is so high. But somehow something happens and I respond to the fact that people are listening and it brings me to this hightened awareness. I know they are there, I'm feeling insecure at the start of the first piece in the notes, my memory starts to almost slip and then the fear somehow makes me sink into the zone more - its safer there! And I dont' mean being in the zone blocks out the audience - on the contrary I need them... I need the energy I feel from them to respond to. When I'm at my best performance - and I have heard recordings of my concerts - I was in what I call 'the zone'. I don't know how to bottle it and use it as a potion for all occasions. I sometimes think I'm going to lose 'the zone' the less I perform and the older I get!

Hi phoenix, I really appreciate your feedback, as well as this of Alan. You know, when you are "alone", sometimes, you might be in doubt with your findings, and when someone suddenly replies to your post, you feel rassured. So, thanks very much. Moreover, I agree with you on all points. I also think that there are lots of pianists who have this inner feeling, but they cannot help pupils because they don't know what the problem could be. It has been the case for my Concservatory teacher though. But at the same time, many years ago, I met another teacher, in private, who told me all those things, but I think I was not (yet) ready, even if I undrstood what he told, but was not able to apply it. Now, after my own discoverings (as you mention too i twas the case for you), in in some way, with the reviewing of Alan's DVD and other readings, things finally (be)came clear. But as you say, how can we write this down ? How can we explain it once we discovered it ? Maybe the skeletal method of Alan or other (Sink, Seymour, etc) would probably aim for it, but it's not a guanatee that it's infallible. Regarding the "pressing the keys deep" topic, this becomes also something per se, with the "right sensation". Let's say, for the understanding of our discussion here, that we will speak about the "right sensation" to describe what is not descriptible... That's why we can understand the careness of Alan regarding relaxation, which can be interpreted in a wrong way. In my opinion, a good teacher is somemone wo can detect in a pupil what are his capabilities and point ou what is missing. As well as "technically (body, arm-weight, etc), as musically (interpretation, style, structure, etc). But as you mentionned, with your teacher, many have this "right sensation" but they cannot explain it, because they don't know they have it, as it is native in them... haha. Of course, other don't have it anyway. Do you think that those who don't have this feeling can become great performers ? I mean, is there a way to be a great pianist while only playing with the "finger-school" ? Even in great contests, you can hear very "mechanical" pianists. In parenthesis, I send you a link to the International Reine Elisabeth Piano Contest, happening right now here in Belgium. You can hear how nice it it from here: You can choose your performers at the left side of the page and if you go to Finale link, you will have the 12 finalists, which will be performing next week. One favorite for the moment is Bozhanov, a great Bulgarian participant. I'm not a pasionate of contests, but this is an opportunity to hear and SEE the pianists on stage in a very varied repertoire. It's funny how your thought about the fact you feel very tired when you work on the relaxation, is also something I experience ! I have exactly the same symptom ! phoenix, I'm very interested in your "zone" explanation. Unfortunately, I'm not sure to have understood it correctly. Would you be so kind to develop once again, please ? Finally, may I ask if you, as a performer, can apply your finding in practice, with an audience in front of you. I want to say that, in my case, I'm dicsovering this alone, at home, but I don't know how will my body react when playing in public...would all be gone, or will I be able to control this ? It's so fresh ! I will of course try it out soon with familiars and I can organize some audition to « test it, but it’s too early. I don’t want to play back as « before ». Thanks again for your feddback. Regards. Jack.

Sorry I can't respond to each detail of these really fine posts right now, but briefly, I just played through my recital program for next week's concert in Montreal for a few friends here, and I can tell you that yes, new physical organizations learned in practice CAN be used in performance but it takes real mental clarity. The first thing that will happen: your old habits will come roaring back. You must have practiced not only the new organization but PERFORMING WITH the new organization at home in your practice room if you want to have any chance of using it on stage. So, it is like any learning - there is a period of 'breaking in,' of adjustment. But it is indeed possible, and the rewards of being persistent in developing this can be considerable... AFF

Thanks for the reply Alan. Have a nice recital next week. Regards. Jack

Hi All Jack I thought I'd try and explain to you my description of "the zone". Have you ever read the Inner Game of Music which was originally a text written for Inner Game of Tennis but applied to Music? It talks about 2 voices (Self 1 and Self 2) in one's head when performing. Now I might add that I had been able to perform before I read this book but it confirmed what happens when you go through the experience of being up there on that stage and puts it into words what I only have 'brain code' for. (I describe brain code as knowing something without knowing the vocabulary for - like machine code in a computor). I hope I'm not complicating the explanation? I tend to use my own words instead of someone else's but I'm sure the biological words would be neurological, sensory etc. So in performace Self 1 tells you your doubts while you are about to begin your performance or even anywhere in the performance. Have you ever started wondering what you are going to have for dinner or something trivial in the performance? Self 1 will tell you - you are unprepared what are you doing here, watch that passage you can't really play that well remember last time it all went wrong... etc etc. Self 2 is the unthinking state. When I say 'the zone' I mean Self 2 is prominent with Self 1 in the background - it's reduced or sometimes eliminated. Self 2 for me is the state where I have panicked at listening to Self 1 that its intent on destroying me in performance makes me shut it out by becoming more aware of the music and listening. I think 'listening' is the key thing for me to get into the zone. The complex process of inner ear and listening to the sounds, AND being aware of your environment at the same time is what I mean by listening. This last point is what I meant by being aware of your audience. But the book describes it as accepting everything around you that you fear including the fact you may have a memory slip or play a passage wrong or whatever. I describe my experience as knowing an audience is watching but somehow picking up on their energy. I once did a performance of Chopin Revolutionary followed by Ravel Ondine as part a University lunchtime concert. 10 minutes before I was in the Student Union getting a chocolate bar from a vending machine. Then I went on stage and had a few nerves but the silence before I began seemed particularly long when listening to the tape back. The audience was completely silent and unusually packed out. In the Revolutionary Self 1 was more prominent - I was tiring in my LH towards the end. But the last seimquaver run down went well and then the final chord was so full and so loud that it rang around the hall for a few seconds!!! Ondine went really well and this is where I was in my zone! The intricate water passages made me listen intently and I 'paced' the flow of the music well which made the climax more intense. I also achieved ppp to fff. It was my best 'performance experience' of this piece and got me noticed. But I felt something from the audience - I felt focus and that they were listening intently and this makes me respond even more subconciously. This is why I said I need the audience. Well one is never sure afterwards what the audience is doing as we become aware in a post performance state and try to remember what was hapenning which often is difficult because you were in the 'unthinking' state (the zone). It's only when you get feedback you can confirm what you felt at the time. For this performance I was told one lecturer described in a performance studies lecture: "the atmosphere was electrifying". I believe there IS energy out there! Physically, I think I just end up applying what I practice (I think!) . If there was any difficulty in practice then it comes out in the performance. Do you ever play pieces the same way years back when you were learning them? It's like going back in time. Sorry that was a long explanation. The book goes in more detail but I thought Id give you my description. About the link you sent me. I didn't get any sound but I will try again later in case my sound card or driver is playing up. Many have succeded as performers from the 'finger action' school. I think the danger is to take it as purely finger action. They no doubt will use arm weight, bones etc but they believe that its the articulation they achieve thats making them successful! I've been looking over the Pianists at Play by Dean Elder. Some of the things that they describe seem so mechanical and clearly finger action orientated. Some describe how they practiced scales for many hours before even beginning pieces. It sounds unbelievable that 'finger action' is the only thing they are using and that they are just unaware of the other movements they make freely. Most focused on telling us how they practice 7 hours a day (which also makes you think that's what you have to put in!) , scales, Hanon, Czerny and they offer technical regimes. I read Peter Orths description of how to practice Chopin etude 10.2 which I think made me practice at first the wrong choreography (kinesthetic template) :- "Bar 1. " I recommend two ways of practicing this etude. One is to keep your wrist firm and low, playing the two chordal under-notes on each beat staccato, pointing your fingers. Lift the fingers high enough so that they can push the keys down again; that is, the fingers are neither very high nor very close. With a firm wrist, the sound and the energy to the fingers becomes more channeled. Many people let their wrists move too much, so that their fingers don't do their share of the work; they never get the strength they need for big playing. If the wrist wields too much power, the fingers become mushy. The tone won't be firm even and pearly. The other way is to practice slow, forte, very close to the keys, super-legato with a lot of finger pressure, like bubble gum sticking on. Some people say this way of practicing isn't right, but I have to do it often." I was wondering about your description of "audience in practice". Do you mean pretend there is an audience when you practice? You mean when you are playing something through and not practicing a technical solution to a bar/beat/passage? I've heard this before that you should practice as if you were performing and that when you are performing imagine you are practicing. I can say that when I practice I "daydream" of situations where I'm playing and to specific people - not necessarily a concert hall. Is this the same thing? I never perform as if I am practicing because that puts me in a different psychological state. As a final thought ... don't you think for all the effort we put into our art that the audience don't know what is good or bad? How many times have you listened to a mechanical performance or a self egotistical performance that didn't move you, or irritated you. But if the fingers move fast and the notes sound unachievably even, then the audience are in raptures! This sometimes makes me wonder why we bother at all - I know why we do - but you see what I mean? I don't know what its's like in other countries but here in the UK if they even have a foreign/Russian name then they are taken seriously!! Sorry for the long reply! Sharon