Discomfort And Pain At The Radio-ulnar Joint

I have been having recurrent but subtle discomfort and very slight pain at the radio-ulnar joint of both arms, but especially the left arm. What could be causing this? It comes and goes, and sometimes even when the fingers are not articulating or really moving a lot too. Any thoughts?

Sorry, you'll have to be more specific - do you mean the superior or inferior radioulnar joint? AFF

I guess I wouldn't really know the difference. It's a subtle, intermittent discomfort and very slight pain on the elbow, and I supposed at the radioulnar joint. It comes even when I'm not playing, but only when I sit at the piano, and I think it is more prevalent when there is passage work that requires more articulation. Any thoughts?

That's the superior radioulnar joint. I have another student with a very similar problem. We have been working with great intensity to solve it, as the underlying cause is rather deep-seated. She told me her first piano teacher told her to make the palms of her hands "like iron," and so she did, and now that tension in her palm and fingers is chronic. And like you describe, this unbelievably strong chronic contraction activates even if she only approaches the keyboard. We are working to get her hand to loosen - generic looseness and relaxation. But then she feels flaccid and out of control, so we work to stand up her finger in a kind of "bone-rope" structure so that she can feel a subtle connection to the board without the usual associated strong contractions. We are doing a combination of Feldenkrais lessons away from and at the piano, and playing passages very slowly, consciously using the hand in a completely new way. She is having a great deal of difficulty applying this to actual playing, because the old reflexes, which are quite ingrained, keep coming back. I tell her, "We have to undo those habits that have been your undoing." So at this distance it is hard to say whether your problem might relate to what I describe above. The only thing that I am pretty sure would help is for you to cultivate "skeletality" in your playing, and for that, please browse this forum - I write about it all over the place! Best wishes, AFF

Dear Alan, Thanks for your thoughts. I'm currently reading your book which is absolutely fascinating. It's such a thrill that you also answer these posts!! I would love to be able to play for you one day. I don't think I've described my problem well. The discomfort is very subtle. It doesn't seem that your description fits my problem. The pain doesn't prevent me from playing with a certain amount of ease. I've performed things like Rach 3 with orchestra a couple of times with a CERTAIN amount of ease (I've been a student of Horacio Gutierrez for the last four years in NY). In fact, I'm playing it in three weeks (and maybe that's why the discomfort comes, from slight overpracticing). I only say that (not to be unmodest) because I don't feel any tightness or pain or contraction whatsoever at the level of fingers, palm, or wrist. Not even shoulder. The exact feeling I get is also not exactly PAIN in the elbow, but more as if it's lacking lubrication, as if the elbow is not resilient enough, and even when I think it's quiet, and relaxed, there's some kind of contraction going on. As if the elbow lags behind. Now, I feel more the discomfort at the intervals when I'm not ACTUALLY playing, than when I am. What I think I would love to do, is to send you a video of my playing, playing a passage where exactly this kind of discomfort happens. Is that at all possible for you to quickly watch? Thanks again for your kindness. Sincerely, Josu de Solaun Soto ()

Wow, you are a student of Gutierrez! This is nice, you bring a certain classiness to our forum! OK, so it seems not to be the thing I described but something else. Hard to say exactly what. If you're in New York, my brother is a Feldenkrais practitioner with whom it might be useful to have a lesson or two... Hey, wait a minute! I myself will be in NY in a week's time. I am presenting at the MTNA-CFMTA joint conference called Empowering Musicians - Mind, Body and Spirit, July 7-9 at the Yamaha Center. Also doing something at the Bechstein Center Thursday evening. I will be seeing a few students privately so if you'd like to be amongst them let me know! In the meantime, please post the video in our other section, Student Video Discussion Group, and I will gladly take a look at it. Best wishes, AFF

Dear Alan, Is there an email I can reach you at? I will be in New York until July 5, and would love to take a lesson with you. My email is . I'm glad you know Gutierrez! Many people seem to forget what a genius pianistic titan he is. Please let me know. I'll definitely post the video in the section, as soon as I figure out how to compress it. Thanks, Josu

I arrive July 6, the day after you leave... too bad! But go and see my brother Scott if you have the time/money. Give him a call, I will email you his number... AFF PS I remember Gutierrez playing the Beethoven 4th in Montreal decades ago - it was very fine, a particularly beautiful sound that I can hear in my mind's ear to this day - his sound had a sheen and a warmth that was clear, full of light rather than muted - hard to describe but lovely to remember... PPS I see you studied with a student of Magda Tagliaferro, did you read her interview that I posted at ?

Hi! Yes, I read the Tagliaferro article. Very interesting, and all brings me back so many good memories of my first teacher, Maria Teresa Naranjo. She was a wonderful Mexican pianist who emigrated to Spain after studying with Tagliaferro in Paris for at least 10 years. So many of the technical concepts she mentions in the article my teacher was trying to instill in me. Of course, I was too young... But I still learned my basis from her. I always remember her calling the arch the ACOUSTIC DOME of the hand, as if the sound actually resonated inside of the palm. She said Tagliaferro insisted a lot on that. Also, I remember clearly her insistence on the importance of the elbow joint and its looseness. This is a challenge for me to this day, and I always had the intuition that it is very important in playing, although I'm not sure how 100 percent yet. When I went to Gutierrez, the technical approach was completely different, but of course had some fundamental points in common. Cheers! J

This is really fantastic - what a great image, thank you for sharing it with us! As for the elbow joint, did she mean forward-back looseness, or more likely lateral looseness? I must confess this is something I think less about - to my mind, when all the other elements I am so obsessive about fall into place, the relatively simple elbow joint is fine, it "does what it needs to do without being told." Which brings me back to my original postulation that the funny quasi-pain in your elbow has its origin somewhere else... Thanks once again, AFF