Comfortable Rotation And Reverse-rotation

once again, I have gained a wonderful new paradigm from AF's approach - rotation. I can find many great uses for this technique. Because I undertook to really master this technique, I am learning Chopin's Op 10. #1. BUT: 1) I find it really hard to do rotation without getting a sore wrist after 30 minutes. Why might this be? Should I exaggerate the rotation in slow practice then reduce it as I speed up? Any other suggestions? 2) I find the shift from thumb to fifth in the descending patterns difficult. I also found this hard when I tried to add rotation to my scales - it feels easier ascending than descending. Any pearls of pianism to help me out? Thanks Tom

Hi I think that your enthusiasm has driven you to forget that you have to use your fingers or lumbricals.Rotation is only à little help to get in position or to initiate a sceletal push or pull. So the pain comes from letting the wrist overtaking the job. For the etudes I could recommend the Cortot edition. Best wishes Eric

Hmm, so the fingers can't be passive? I interpreted these exercises as increasing the use of the bones/skeletality (via the wrist) and reducing the conscious muscle activation of fingers - if you can clarify the distinctions/aims I would be very grateful.

Hi You are right the sceletal approach reduces the use of fingers or rather increase their productivity/potential.But the fingers will always remain active.The trick is to use your lumbricals as much as you can and if you read "Honing the pianistic.." or some other book of Alans you'll find a detailed research on all these anatomic issues. When using muscles in a "correct" way and having a "good" position of the hand it's possible to get a very rich and precise sound without building up strain.I'm not a specialist in teaching so if you're lucky Andrew (cziffra) p2u or even Alan himself might give you some good advice here. If you ask me I would say try two totally different approaches 1) scratch the key 2) stand up using your finger as you would use your legs like if you sat down on them and then stood up. And feel the lumbricals in your hand.The key is 50gr but this weight increase exponentially with speed so some strength is needed. It's the kind of strenght you need to accentuate one key within a chord. That etude doesn't look easy but it's not that difficult once you "get it". One thing is to angle your hand a bit different when you go up (pinky "high") and the reverse when you go down.Pesonally I practise by "holding" thumb and pinky but I know fine pianists who does the contrary.I think reaching out with your thumb to quickly weakens the fingers so I try to keep the thumb (as Alan advocates) under my other fingers. The Cortot edition is (if you ask me) indespensable especially for this etude. If you work out his exercises around this etude you'll soon find out how to play it. The good thing with these "rythmizations" is that your brain starts to find it's own solutions when all these patterns are altered rythmically. I would advice you to forget about speed it will multiply the time you need to learn it properly by eons. It's a beautiful piece and can be played slowly.There are researches that suggests that this etude was played in about half the tempo indicated when it was composed but who knows. Here is a nice piece written by Andrew which I like: ... art-i.html Good luck eric

I just got back from one of Alan's workshops in Stuttgart where I had a series of lessons involving rotation. As Eric says, the rotation is never a replacement for finger action, but facilitates and supports it, and the finger action can help generate and propel the rotation - once you hit on the right balance it's almost perpetual motion, each element feeding into the other to improve the gestalt. Of course, I'm oversimplifying things here, because the end result is a very sophisticated organisation. Sometimes rotation is not the answer, either. I was exclusively rotating in the left hand accompaniment of a Chopin Nocturne and Alan actually got me swivelling a lot to allow more functionality in this instance. However, I think you're right to focus on rotation for Op.10 No.1, just don't forget the fingers! On skeletality, I feel that, for me, rotation is something that aids a technique whether it is skeletal or not (mine was certainly the latter). There are some great ways of cultivating skeletality, particularly in Honing and All Thumbs, which need to be developed in their own context. Once developed, things like rotation can be added in pretty easily. That's just my (newly formulated) take on things.

Hi You are right the sceletal approach reduces the use of fingers or rather increase their productivity/potential.But the fingers will always remain active.The trick is to use your lumbricals as much as you can and if you read "Honing the pianistic.." or some other book of Alans you'll find a detailed research on all these anatomic issues. When using muscles in a "correct" way and having a "good" position of the hand it's possible to get a very rich and precise sound without building up strain.I'm not a specialist in teaching so if you're lucky Andrew (cziffra) p2u or even Alan himself might give you some good advice here. If you ask me I would say try two totally different approaches 1) scratch the key 2) stand up using your finger as you would use your legs like if you sat down on them and then stood up. And feel the lumbricals in your hand.The key is 50gr but this weight increase exponentially with speed so some strength is needed. It's the kind of strenght you need to accentuate one key within a chord. That etude doesn't look easy but it's not that difficult once you "get it". One thing is to angle your hand a bit different when you go up (pinky "high") and the reverse when you go down.Pesonally I practise by "holding" thumb and pinky but I know fine pianists who does the contrary.I think reaching out with your thumb to quickly weakens the fingers so I try to keep the thumb (as Alan advocates) under my other fingers. The Cortot edition is (if you ask me) indespensable especially for this etude. If you work out his exercises around this etude you'll soon find out how to play it. The good thing with these "rythmizations" is that your brain starts to find it's own solutions when all these patterns are altered rythmically. I would advice you to forget about speed it will multiply the time you need to learn it properly by eons. It's a beautiful piece and can be played slowly.There are researches that suggests that this etude was played in about half the tempo indicated when it was composed but who knows. Here is a nice piece written by Andrew which I like: ... art-i.html Good luck eric Did you mean this one: I think the end of the link got cut off. On this issue, I think it helps a huge amount to reference objective against subjective issues. Subjective approaches can be very effective, but by looking at objective facts you get a clearer idea if you're using the wrong subjective viewpoint to help yourself. The word "geometry" may send some people running a mile, but a very simple practical consideration (not of precise angles but of general issues) is very revealing when it comes to rotation. How far would you need to rotate to depress a key- if rotation is what creates key movement? It can be a HUGE distance. With close fingers, you'd virtually have to put the hand on it's side to get a key down, if you have a plaster cast of a hand. Nobody rotates far enough for that to work. Some things can be internalised (when they are not directly what creates distance)- but not the direct source of key movement! That would be like "internalising" the act reaching your arm out to pick something up that is 50cm away from you. You can't "internalise" the motion to only reach out 10cm yet pick up something that is 50 cm away. Rotation is an element of freedom and can be a partial provider of what creates the distance between an upward key and a depressed key. However's there's no way whatsoever that it can compensate for a finger that tries to merely support- without creating it's own movement. To do so, the hand would not only have to rotate through colossal angles, but it would have to keep reversing back on itself- against its own momentum. It's not surprising that a forearm would ache if this is taken literally. It's like switching a car between forward and reverse over and over at high speeds. Rotation can only be an aid. It's both impossible for it to generate all the key movement and for it to involve two reversals of direction for every note. More likely, it would be subtle rotation that gradually spans four notes. The fingers have to be more than just active- but active in a specific way that creates movement (either by lengthening out or by pulling back in an arc). If a subjective viewpoint doesn't make that happen, it's doomed from the start.

OK, so am I right in saying that rotation doesn't play notes, it positions fingers to be able to play notes easier? And does this still apply with the thumb and fifth, which both move furthest when rotated? Or does finger movement ALWAYS trump rotation?

OK, so am I right in saying that rotation doesn't play notes, it positions fingers to be able to play notes easier? And does this still apply with the thumb and fifth, which both move furthest when rotated? Or does finger movement ALWAYS trump rotation? Consider that when an octave apart, a smaller angle of rotation can produce a lot more downward movement in the finger than when two notes apart. Rotation can be a significant element for alternating octaves. Fingers may create less of the movement in broken octaves between 1 and 5, compared to with closer notes. it's just that static fingers (which aren't trying to move a least a little) are still generally stiff ones that land with impact. Rotation can contribute a reasonable amount in some situations, but it can't ever replace finger movement altogether.

once again, I have gained a wonderful new paradigm from AF's approach - rotation. I can find many great uses for this technique. Because I undertook to really master this technique, I am learning Chopin's Op 10. #1. BUT: 1) I find it really hard to do rotation without getting a sore wrist after 30 minutes. Why might this be? Should I exaggerate the rotation in slow practice then reduce it as I speed up? Any other suggestions? 2) I find the shift from thumb to fifth in the descending patterns difficult. I also found this hard when I tried to add rotation to my scales - it feels easier ascending than descending. Any pearls of pianism to help me out? Thanks Tom 1) If the rotation feels tiring, then you aren't rotating to your elbow. And rotation is not compensation for using your fingers. The fingers move with the rotation. And indeed, if they do not, then you are not moving freely. 2) Regarding the shift from the thumb to the 5th. Rotate and swing your thumb to its note. The very playing of that thumb note should put your hand immediately into a position where the hand looks as though its crossing over the thumb (a la crossovers in scales and arpeggios). In other words, your thumb is under your hand. In this position your 5th finger is ready to swing to the right to play its note. And again, here, the very playing of that 5th finger note must generate the opening of the hand, preparing you to play the proceeding notes. Best, John

I also will reply only to the initial post. 1) If you overdo rotation you risk over-reducing finger activity which would lead to tiring eventually. 2) Descending in Op. 10 #1 practice slowly creating an does it. But if you force yourself to really connect thumb note to fifth finger note, the hand learns to contract, to fold in on itself better, and this helps things. It gives the hand yet another form of power - another capability which it needs for this etude. AFF