Collasping 5th Finger

Hi, When I play with my 5th finger, the knuckle collapes inwards. How do I go about fixing it? It is especially prominent on my RH. pp16

A good question and surprisingly difficult to answer without seeing you. I'll say a few things but it is hard to tell which one will work best for you - you'll have to try them out and see for yourself... 1) Most likely your arm is not coming in behind your fifth finger to help it out. , where you lay your finger "karate chop" style in the key and then pull on it, bringing your arm forward and making your hand rise up into its standing arch position. This has two positive effects: it activate your fifth's lumbrical-interossei, and it draws your arm into the picture. 2) Another variation is to stand your hand on all five fingers and then simply move your forearm to the outside so that the entire forearm is more lined up behind your fifth finger instead of behind the middle of your hand. 3) A third variation is "cliff hanging," where you begin with your hand way below key, your fifth hanging from the edge of the key by its very tip, then puuuull up till your hand is standing in its arch shape, thus exercising the lumbrical and interosseous muscles of the fifth. 4) Or there is chapter 4 part 1 of my film, , another way of strengthening that whole outside ridge of the hand. All of these can be done with considerable effort, body-building style, to awaken muscles that may have been dormant, but this can be dangerous in certain situations, so be very careful. Better to start with minimal effort and educate your senses: let your reflexes learn to sense from within how your finger wants to activate to stand well, by reducing effort to increase exactitude of sensation. 5) Lastly, there are situations when the fifth can splay with impunity, and you really don’t have to worry about that knuckle collapsing! “Flat fingers” technique for instance… Keep me posted! AFF

This is my 1st post. Hope I can learn some\many things here. I too have the problem of a collapsing 5th, but only in the left hand. Except it not only collapses but locks--and that's an ouch. I have small hands for a man, so I have always had to "really" stretch. I can reach a 9th, a 10th is out of the question. With my fingers fully extended, I can place finger 5 to 1 in line, so that's about as far as I can hope to reach. I went to the doctor to inquire about the collapse & then lock. He said I had hyper-extended my 5th fing/left hand & that's the problem. (not certain if I believe that, otherwise I'd have the same thing on the right hand, but it's solid and makes a great arch). The left hand does has problems though, on the left side of the left wrist, the cartilage that connects the hand to the arm (the wrist) has been torn, as well as the nerve that is there. The nerve is the Ulna. It run from the elbow and to the outside of the little finger and branches between the inside of the 4th & 5th fingers. It's the nerve that if you hit your elbow on something, it sends a strong tingle/shock through the arm. In English we call it hitting your "funny bone." The sprain (tear) was operated on and can't be fixed. I don't think it's the tear though that's causing the collapse. The tear makes it difficult for side-to-side movement. If when the pain becomes too bad, I can fill up on pain meds and go maybe another 15 minutes. It is perplexing though. If I squeeze the left wrist (side-to-side) together, the pressure does something and the little finger doesn't collapse. I don't know if it is something that can be fixed surgically, especially when it locks in the collapsed position, but I'd rather not have any more hand surgery. Was the comment about playing flat-finger meant or jest? I notice that Horowitz played arched when young, then moved to a mix, when older. Perhaps that is an answer for someone who has an injury and cannot sustain the arch? But of course, there are no teachers of flat finger technique that I know of, here in Utah. I'll have to learn by watching youtube and reading--are there any books that talk about that technique? Alan, if you were only jesting when you mentioned it, then it will be either surgery for me or let it go and play collapsed and locked, until it breaks. Anyway, I enjoy this forum and all the comments. Now, I'm headed to make my own thread. Bob

No I wasn't joking about the flat finger technique, it is really possible to use it. In my book, The Craft of Piano Playing, I spend quite a bit of time in chapter 20 and elsewhere on orienting the hand towards the thumb so that the fifth finger is free to be lifted by the outside of the hand, extended and then brought into the key with a vigorous, "structure-supported slap." Nothing at all in there about curling or flexing the fifth in any way. Another, seemingly opposite strategy: Horowitz often curled his pinky tightly when he wasn't using it - I feel this helped 'prime' his other fingers, 'cocking' them so they could unleash vigorously and freely. Have you tried imitating this? Really difficult to say anything about the results of your surgery over the Internet, even though you've described it very accurately. My whole shtick is to "get skeletal," transferring the work of muscles to the bone structure itself. Theoretically, this approach would be especially useful for you, as although there may be some cartilage tearing, presumably all the bones are still there. Your CNS just has to learn better how to stack them up into a stable structure, or rather an unstable yet balanced structure, for them to serve you better on the keyboard. When you compress your wrist, you are actually helping the CNS do just this. It is a technique we use in Feldenkrais Functional Integration sometimes. Compressing two bones together helps the CNS perceive how they can function as a structure that effectively transmits forces through it. The CNS then alters the way it is controlling the muscles around those bones so they make better use of the structure's power potential. Which brings to mind another option: maybe nobody is teaching flat fingers in Utah but I do believe the state has some Feldenkrais practitioners. I would definitely go to an experienced practitioner who may well be able to offer you an effective alternative to further surgery. You have much more extension than I do! I can open my hand only to about 135 degrees... I am rambling here a bit because it's late. Let me know what you think... Best wishes! AFF

Alan, Thanks for replying & answering all my questions, up front and helpfully. I really appreciate that. I'm looking forward to getting your book and DVD as well as learning here on the forum. The little trick you mentioned about lifting the side of the hand so the top of the little finger on the hand is in line with the rest of the hand, makes sense, and it works too! Thanks. Yes, my extension is 180 degrees, tip of thumb to tip of little finger. However, since I have small hands, that's what I have to do to clear an 8va. My orthopedic doc says I have hyper-mobility. That's great for agility but not so good for strength. I'd trade my 180 degree reach for your narrower one, if I could have longer fingers. I tried the solution of using fingers 3 & 5 (as on the demo DVD) to make the 8va span and use that to position the thumb for leaps. Problem though was no matter what I did (almost included standing on my head) I could reach no further than a m6th with 3 & 5 extended 180 degrees and thumb relaxed on top. I'll have to work on it. My span with 3/5 is about 1" short of making the 8va. Not sure how to make my fingers longer. A bigger hand would help. Amazingly, putting my hand up against a fellow (non-pianist) whose hand is twice the size of mine, I have a wider reach by at least a full inch. I'm fairly certain that I will learn much from your book and DVD. even with my small hands (size 7 ring). But want to ask you before I spend money that's hard to come by, is it realistic to expect what I read will help me with hands this size? I read that Chopin's hands were not large, but his extension was. In looking at a picture of a cast of his hands, mine are sized much like his. And I haven't come across any reach in his music that I can't handle. Listz & Rach. though, are different stories. With them, I have to fudge it. It's funny that I want to play Rachmaninoff, especially considering what he could reach compared to what I can reach. But I was fortunate to have a few lessons and master classes (many years ago) from Gina Bachauer, who was a student of his. It's amazing what can be learned from students of the composers. She showed me some things about playing his music as he taught it to her, that is almost the opposite of the way we often hear it today. Maybe with my small hands I should oder a custom keyboard that will fit my reach and work with my piano's Renner acton? _Probably not though. If Horowitz could fudge, so can I (we)? I'm very much looking forward to learn as much as I can from you. I think we are in agreement with most things already. Having them quantified is certainly going to help. and I want to pass that on to students. And hey, rambling is great for me. As you see, I do it too. sometimes we learn more in a comment made that way, than by direct answers. Thank you for answering. I look forward to this forum and you and your books. (Now I'm trying to find a seller who gives a discount for buying the DVD & the book). And I'm off to work on scales, after a break from going through Rachmaninoff's 3d. Ugh. After that, a Schubert Impromptu is "now for something easy--ha!" Bob in Provo Utah

Hi Bob, nice to get your post. By the way, I never wanted to "found" my own method, I just coined 'Craft of Piano Technique' to have some way of making it visible on the internet... Now about your questions. A significant part of both my book and film deal with exactly the problem you experience of a small hand. However, I am not sure if you will need what I have to say, because you say the doctor says you are hyper-extended. The crucial thing is, Most small-handed students tense their hands when going into extension, thus drastically limiting their moveability. I provide a series of exercises starting with mashing the hand into the keyboard to give it the strange experience of being in extension effortlessly. I have seen students' hands grow a size or two before my eyes from these exercises... But from what you tell me, I'm not sure if this will help you or not - maybe you can already do all that. But in any case it won't hurt! Alicia de Larrocha has a tiny hand but plays all the Liszt and Rachmaninoff - she is so agile that the arpeggiates the big chords almost unnoticeably... My feeling is that my book and film almost certainly will help, because I work with the innate structure and function of the hand. In my work with students I've found that this approach helps virtually everyone who comes to me (oops, sounds like bragging), and the book and film are just a compilation of the most effective ways I did that... When you do the 3rd-5th thing, do those two fingers point 180 degrees in opposite directions? Unfortunately you're not likely to find a merchant that offers a deal on buying both. We haven't set up on Amazon yet, and Scarecrow Press did not take us up on an offer for them to include the DVD in their cataloque. But you've given me an idea - Maple Grove Music could offer a special discount to people who already own the book - if they send us some "proof of purchase" of the book, we give 20% off or something like that. I'll ask my manager if we can set it up. Some companies stick their DVD in an envelope in the back of a book and just charge a couple of bucks more, but there's no way we're doing that - I think the product is too good to deserve that kind of treatment. Jeez, there I go bragging again... One more thing about your small hands... on a more personal note, I have had the incredible good fortune recently to acquire Wanda Landowska's Steinway B upon which she made those amazing Mozart recordings. The previous owner happened to find the web page that I made about that record (at ) and let me know he was selling the instrument. Right now it is in transit between Baltimore and my home here in Novi Sad, and God willing, will be safe and sound in my studio in a few days. So why don't you try finding out what happened to Joseph Hoffman's Steinway? Or even just the keyboard from it - he had one specially made that was smaller... All the best, AFF PS By the way, I would love to hear what Gina Bachauer told you about Rachmaninoff's teaching of his own works - this information is GOLD and should be preserved!

This is an interesting thread. Apropos of Horowitz and his "cocked" pinkie on the right hand, my pinkie does the same thing, seemingly of its own volition. One of my teachers, believing this to be a bad thing because it removed my little finger from constant contact with the keys, assigned me a series of technical exercises which he believed would remove the curl from the finger. Needless to say, the exercises accomplished nothing of the sort. I'm wondering if it's a structural issue. I can almost feel a catch in the knuckle as I raise my little finger. I've also noticed it's much more difficult to raise the 4th finger on my right hand than it is the 4th finger on my left, where the pinkie does not curl. The l.h. 4th finger seems to have much more independence than its counterpart on the right hand, although there is also a very pronounced catch in the l.h. 4th finger at the knuckle joint. This has been the case as long as I can recall; I've never suffered any hand injury that I'm aware of that has caused this. Do we simply attribute this to the randomness of nature and the human genome? Alan

Whether or not your pinkie is cocked back is not so important. More important is the function involved. What effect do you feel from this action? I believe Horowitz did it consciously; I don't think his 5th rose of its own volition. I believe he did it to help the other three fingers "prime" themselves for a quick cobra-like strike into the keys. This helped him get an attack that was sharp, accurate, quick, clean, precise. So if you feel your 5th helping the rest of your hand acquire optimal muscle tonus for an active, vital technique, then more power to you. But if this action is creating tension or compensating for lack of activation/structural integrity elsewhere, then maybe your teacher thought he had good reason to give you those exercises. The other obvious question: does it cause you any problems? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" Hope this helps, AFF

Thanks for the prompt reply. The answers to the two questions you raise are basically the same: I don't know. I've noticed the right hand as I play, particularly in intricate passage work. The fifth finger seems to cock of its own accord; I'm not able to bring it in contact with the keys except when I use it. Once I commence playing, it's as though the finger cocks itself and I am unable to "will" it back into contact with the keyboard. It may be from tension, but if so it's a sub-conscious manifestation of tension--I don't pull it back intentionally. Whether it causes problems?? Tough to say, since it usually only happens in passage work and normally I don't use the fifth finger a lot, although there are some places in the Fm Ballade, principally mm. 159-164, where I struggle with fingerings. The lack of constant contact between keyboard and fifth finger likely contributes to this problem, or causes it . . . All of this said, I've just reached the part of your book that deals with fifth finger exercises, albeit in the context of octaves. I'm going to work on these sedulously and see if I notice a difference. I can't remember the exercises Mark (my teacher) assigned me. Obviously, I wasn't too diligent about them . . . but that was 20 years ago and I was a lot more cavalier then. You mentioned Pischna in your book when talking of legato. One of my children, years ago, used "The Little Pischna" in his lessons with a woman who had trained in the Royal Conservatory in London. Otherwise, I'd never heard of him! I can probably find the Little Pischna buried somewhere in the clutter. Is there something in his exercises that might address this? Thanks again for your thoughtful help and insightful questions. It means a lot. Alan Barber

One thing I forgot to mention: In the opening tremolos of "Ondine," I use the fifth finger to strike the highest notes, e.g., the A#'s of the opening measures. I notice no difficulties there, the pinkie lies on top the key and responds as it should. It's only in quick passage work where I'm coming down the scale towards the body's midline that I notice this. Thanks, Alan