I'm wondering if there may be a slight loss of function, that is not currently detected? Sometimes when I get the position just right, it shocks me how much tonal intensity comes from so little movement. If I get the preparatory connection between finger action and subtle weight just right, the knuckle cannot droop and the intensity of tone is very high. However, if that balance is not there, the knuckle will follow down with the finger movement and there is considerably less scope for acceleration. This is far from something I've mastered, but the sensation is extremely vivid when I find myself getting it just right. I still could get a large tonal intensity with more force, but there's a different kind of warmth and legato to the shape when the knuckle is prepped not to fall one bit.
I think it's to do with the muscles that take the 5th sideways away from the fourth. Sometimes it's good to lightly rest the hand against the fifth as if aligned for a karate chop and gently push hand vertically up with that action. By developing this, even in extreme supination the knuckle can learn not to droop. I think it requires a little sideways opening between knuckles, as well as the pure lengthening action in the finger.
Absolutely, I'd be bringing my arm significantly around to get more "on top" of those. The biggest risk would be from thumb to the 5th in that- although that seems like the easy bit. If you keep good support there and space in the hand there, the following notes are doable with simple extension actions. If you've dropped the arch a little, they are very hard work. For a long time I viewed the extreme verticality of Tai Chi walking as more of a learning exercise, but the more literally I strive for such a position in that type of writing, the easier it is to execute.
Don't think of it as a bad thing if the key moves a little. Even deliberately do it sometimes. I think it's similar to the Feldenkrais concept of making any movement reversible. It improves sensitivity of the interaction to go a little further sometimes. Have you tried my "waving" exercise on the thumb, by the way? I find it's a great way to connect the arm to the thumb and eliminate any impeding stifnesses both in the hand and forearm. From there, this preliminary sense of pressure against the key becomes much easier to find.
Yeah, I see a very good point there. It's hard to be steady in the slowest speeds of all. Have you tried doing movements in general in a way you experiment to see just how slowly you can make a movement while feeling no loss in continuity? It's a very interesting experiment. I find this a useful mindset while doing Feldenkrais exercises, much of the time. What's the slowest you can go without feeling as if you're actually stopping and starting?
Anyway, as long as quick doesn't mean to prod sharply and then try to retract mid-way, starting with slightly faster speeds might be an important stage to go through to aid the steadiness of motion. For me, the key would be not to have to feel a violent change of state anyway. The balanced position should be the natural outcome of completing the movement with continuing intent- for maximal control over the energy transfer. You just have to be sure that the arm isn't pressing- so it naturally evolves into a comfortable rather than compressed position. One of the best insurances against that is to start with a very low wrist and move the finger while the wrist has started drifting very slowly upwards. As long as that drift doesn't cease while the finger moves, compression becomes literally impossible- no matter how confident the finger action is.
Is it Stuttgart where you're getting lessons from Alan, by the way? I'll catch you there, if so.
Although I've learned a lot from All thumbs, I found it interesting quite how similar the underlying core of much is to what I've been discovering myself since Alan showed me the thumb "corkscrew". This was the first time I consciously used an action of lengthening in the hand and it was a follow up to that that I came to discover that finger lengthening too is effective. That one exercise basically set the ball rolling for a whole different style of movement. I realise now that all of this stuff is extremely heavily implied by the Tai chi walking and the standing up concept etc, but I don't feel that I was doing these exercises in quite the right way until I had that conscious intent towards of the lengthening action. With conscious awareness of this underlying activity, I feel that you greatly improve the odds that the actions in these exercises will be directly translated to standard the pianistic action.
Interestingly, the thumb corkscrew is something I have trouble doing comfortably. Lengthening the thumb is ok, but the turning at the same time is just something I have not yet managed to use functionally. I did have pain problems in the tendons attached to the thumb previously, though, so that likely prevented me from learning the corkscrew properly.
The brain is constantly experiencing both the benefits and potential pitfalls of each- which gives it a much stronger chance of instinctively finding something functional, compared to if you are locked into a single mindset up either up or down.
I agree with the entirety of this paragraph, but this sentence has great significance to me. I noticed recently that work on giving myself technical options allowed great musical improvement. But it also affected my sight reading dramatically (which improved massively overnight without me practising it).
I'm wondering if there may be a slight loss of function, that is not currently detected?
Undoubtedly. I've noticed that I'm more aware with what's going on in my second, third and fourth fingers than I am in my thumb and fifth. I think the moveability of the metacarpals of thumb and fifth complicates the matter.
I think it's to do with the muscles that take the 5th sideways away from the fourth. Sometimes it's good to lightly rest the hand against the fifth as if aligned for a karate chop and gently push hand vertically up with that action. By developing this, even in extreme supination the knuckle can learn not to droop. I think it requires a little sideways opening between knuckles, as well as the pure lengthening action in the finger.
The sideways opening action is one I've considered but have so far neglected. I think that it must be one of those movements that has to be developed far more for people with smaller hands, but I guess it comes in handy for other things too (Kemal Gekic appears to be doing it in the leaps in La Campanella).
Absolutely, I'd be bringing my arm significantly around to get more "on top" of those. The biggest risk would be from thumb to the 5th in that- although that seems like the easy bit. If you keep good support there and space in the hand there, the following notes are doable with simple extension actions. If you've dropped the arch a little, they are very hard work. For a long time I viewed the extreme verticality of Tai Chi walking as more of a learning exercise, but the more literally I strive for such a position in that type of writing, the easier it is to execute.
Interesting, I'll try this out.
Don't think of it as a bad thing if the key moves a little. Even deliberately do it sometimes. I think it's similar to the Feldenkrais concept of making any movement reversible. It improves sensitivity of the interaction to go a little further sometimes. Have you tried my "waving" exercise on the thumb, by the way? I find it's a great way to connect the arm to the thumb and eliminate any impeding stifnesses both in the hand and forearm. From there, this preliminary sense of pressure against the key becomes much easier to find.
Do you mean the using the other hand to waggle the thumb? I'd explored such things because I'd noticed my Feldenkrais teacher doing it. I have found it very useful.
Yeah, I see a very good point there. It's hard to be steady in the slowest speeds of all. Have you tried doing movements in general in a way you experiment to see just how slowly you can make a movement while feeling no loss in continuity? It's a very interesting experiment. I find this a useful mindset while doing Feldenkrais exercises, much of the time. What's the slowest you can go without feeling as if you're actually stopping and starting?
It's something I explored briefly, but I need to go into it in more detail.
Anyway, as long as quick doesn't mean to prod sharply and then try to retract mid-way, starting with slightly faster speeds might be an important stage to go through to aid the steadiness of motion. For me, the key would be not to have to feel a violent change of state anyway. The balanced position should be the natural outcome of completing the movement with continuing intent- for maximal control over the energy transfer. You just have to be sure that the arm isn't pressing- so it naturally evolves into a comfortable rather than compressed position. One of the best insurances against that is to start with a very low wrist and move the finger while the wrist has started drifting very slowly upwards. As long as that drift doesn't cease while the finger moves, compression becomes literally impossible- no matter how confident the finger action is.
I've found playing "through" the key useful for achieving what you say, though keeping the wrist moving without a jolt is still tricky. It's a task that Alan set me a couple of months back. I can do it better now, but there's still massive room for improvement.
Is it Stuttgart where you're getting lessons from Alan, by the way? I'll catch you there, if so.
Yes, I look forward to seeing you there and having the chance to talk in person.
Have you tried just giving a thumbs down in the air? This is a very natural way to combine the basic feeling of both lengthening and turning, although I don't know if something might interfere with the ease of that too?
Yeah, it's worth trying. Even when working from a near vertical fifth finger, a trace of consciously opening between 4 and 5 can free something up, via the sense of opening rather than being static
I like that too but it's exercise no 3 in this one.
I've found this one the most direct and easy ways to feel both connection to the piano and a sense of length and freedom behind it. I think the fairly vigorous finger movement cannot be performed without a lot of loosening, which makes it much less likely that connecting the hand is accompanied by bracing in the arm. From here, it makes it easy to feel that preliminary contact between finger and key, if you go from the thumb to the next finger after that preparation.
Yes, I look forward to seeing you there and having the chance to talk in person.
Great it will be interesting to meet.
By the way, in the last couple of days, the fifth finger issue has really been standing out. I've realised that there are two very different problems that I both suffer. sometimes the fifth is plain drooped to start off with- which suggests too little sense of the fifth pushing back against the mild weight, in order to be standing before it even starts moving the key (and too little sense of the arch being held up by the previous finger). However, I've realised that a now very common fault involves a hand that is already standing up perfectly well, but the fifth finger is TOO HIGH away from the key. It hasn't rested down enough to firm itself via in that preliminary activity of standing up against the resistance and hence falls down (either just from the individual knuckle, or sometimes bringing all of the knuckles or even the whole arm with it). Although creating an extreme arch via thumb lengthening is very important, it doesn't count for much unless you ensure that the fifth finger is resting down enough to be pushing the knuckle back up throughout. In this respect, it's neither an up issue nor a down issue, but a perfect balance of both. By involving thought of weight (but restricting it to a preparation from a finger that is pressing back up close to making itself vertical- not as a source of key movement) I'm getting much better at spotting the moments where I've gone too far and left the knuckle having no choice but to follow the rest of the finger's movement down. I'm hoping that I'll be able to virtually eliminate these issues eventually, by putting more thought into the feeling for the preliminary stage than into the act of moving the keys.
At the moment, I've discovered that the repeated octaves of the 6th rhapsody by Liszt are becoming feasible, due to better contact. Although there are still holes all over the place in general, this feel for the preparatory stage is proving very useful. Even in a big arm drop, I believe it's the exact same kind of bonding with the key (timed to within a fraction of a second) which makes everything function best. Too late and the finger starts collapsing as you reach the key, too early and the knuckle will be tending to want to drop down (with the fifth, at least) before you've reached it.
I was hoping to spend more time following up the ideas discussed here over the next couple of days, but unfortunately I've hurt my right arm. I foolishly decided to play a piece practised with my old habits (with lots of chords) and got back into shoving my arm to play the chords and managed to damage something. Perhaps I should have known better, being in a stage of deconstruction of my technique.
I did, however, came up with a little AMT like exercise to combine various issues I've been having. It actually started from one of the early ATMs in - the one in which you explore the hand's neutral on a table by rolling the arm over while the fingers fold. I played around with lowering the arch as in step 2 of the ATM, but then decided to experiment with different motions of the fingers, all while allowing the hand and arm to rest on the table. After that, I moved onto using extension of the fingers to raise the knuckles as slowly as possible. For me the release around the fourth and fifth knuckles is quite profound and gave me a possible explanation as to why the back of my hands feel stiff when my knuckles are raised.
So, for the next few days I'm going to be doing some very gentle exploration away from the piano. I'm looking forward to my lessons with Alan - fortunately he doesn't mind that I'm bringing only small bits and pieces of music. I'm in such a process of deconstruction now that I don't have any full pieces in my repertoire, as I feel that aiming to complete a piece would be destructive to my progress at the moment.
I was hoping to spend more time following up the ideas discussed here over the next couple of days, but unfortunately I've hurt my right arm. I foolishly decided to play a piece practised with my old habits (with lots of chords) and got back into shoving my arm to play the chords and managed to damage something. Perhaps I should have known better, being in a stage of deconstruction of my technique.
I did, however, came up with a little AMT like exercise to combine various issues I've been having. It actually started from one of the early ATMs in - the one in which you explore the hand's neutral on a table by rolling the arm over while the fingers fold. I played around with lowering the arch as in step 2 of the ATM, but then decided to experiment with different motions of the fingers, all while allowing the hand and arm to rest on the table. After that, I moved onto using extension of the fingers to raise the knuckles as slowly as possible. For me the release around the fourth and fifth knuckles is quite profound and gave me a possible explanation as to why the back of my hands feel stiff when my knuckles are raised.
Just one thing I should probably say is that I'd be careful not to do too much of the wrist drop, as mentioned. I've realised that this was a major omission from my own technique, but if you do have a tendency to press with the arm out of habit, I would strongly recommend that the vast majority is about starting with a lower wrist and drifting it up, so it can't press. I think the ability to do a down is a vital thing and I definitely limited myself by not having learned how to drop the wrist while still engaging the fingers well. However, I would tend of think of this as the exception rather than the rule, if you do tend to use arm pressures. By making any arm pressure something that comes before the key descends (rather than during) and then going up, you have the most productive means of all for learning how to avoid the kind of things that are strenuous.
Funnily enough, by the way, I've actually come back to some of the grasping movements yesterday. I've discovered now that by making it virtually all about extension for a long time, it's now possible to come back to more literal inward grip (in all finger joints) too. I'm becoming convinced that it's the switch I mentioned before between pulling and extending actions. If you pull first but then keep the key down via a switch to a lengthening action, you have your instant release of certain muscles- rather than constant workload. I'm suspecting that this is the objective explanation for those who succeed via the "and then relax" approach. They don't strictly relax the finger- but rather switch seamlessly between one set of muscles to move the key and a totally different set of muscles to keep it depressed. If my suspicions are correct, it means that the idea of relaxing after sound vs Alan's stress on maintaining quality of activity are not actually incompatible and neither is strictly a subjective untruth (even though it seems like the truth of one would have to falsify the other). With a minor reframing, it's possible to understand an objective product from both points of view and explore both elements with understanding and intent (if my theory here is correct, that is). I think mastery of that extension action is nothing less than essential in the ability to think of "relaxing" a finger (after sound) in a functional way. I need to experiment plenty with this but my stance is still strongly towards the lengthening action as a more normal one for efficient key movement, with the addition of the option to pull the keys (possibly even with a bit of slipping across the key surface) but to instantly slip into a balance that is founded upon the lengthening action- both to give the inward actions a rest between keys and to create a stable structure with the least possible arm pressure bearing down on the hand.
I think that the pure lengthening phase I've been through has been absolutely vital (and I'm still pretty certain that it's objectively 100% necessary to be able to play via extending actions if you want to be able to lower the wrist while controlling regular finger actions). However, I'm now feeling as if it might also hold the secret to the more common idea of gripping in with each finger joint. I think different elements can complement each other. I also found yesterday that some students are much better at finding a functional hand shape- if they start by an indirect whole finger pull and then make the switch in activity. Particularly with the fifth, it's not easy to stand quite as fully by lengthening compared to when you pull yourself up from flat to almost vertical. There's certainly plenty of stuff to think about still.
Just one thing I should probably say is that I'd be careful not to do too much of the wrist drop, as mentioned. I've realised that this was a major omission from my own technique, but if you do have a tendency to press with the arm out of habit, I would strongly recommend that the vast majority is about starting with a lower wrist and drifting it up, so it can't press. I think the ability to do a down is a vital thing and I definitely limited myself by not having learned how to drop the wrist while still engaging the fingers well. However, I would tend of think of this as the exception rather than the rule, if you do tend to use arm pressures. By making any arm pressure something that comes before the key descends (rather than during) and then going up, you have the most productive means of all for learning how to avoid the kind of things that are strenuous.
Agreed. I went back to the piano today and did lots of "up" work. I managed to find the slow but steady movement you were describing previously - it's like I've suddenly acquired the ability to play pianissimo consistently, which is all the more significant because my new piano is much louder than my old one. Plus it's starting to feel effortless.
Funnily enough, by the way, I've actually come back to some of the grasping movements yesterday. I've discovered now that by making it virtually all about extension for a long time, it's now possible to come back to more literal inward grip (in all finger joints) too. I'm becoming convinced that it's the switch I mentioned before between pulling and extending actions. If you pull first but then keep the key down via a switch to a lengthening action, you have your instant release of certain muscles- rather than constant workload. I'm suspecting that this is the objective explanation for those who succeed via the "and then relax" approach. They don't strictly relax the finger- but rather switch seamlessly between one set of muscles to move the key and a totally different set of muscles to keep it depressed.
I was thinking earlier about what you describe and just how much I perceive it as a feeling of relaxation. I'm amazed by human perception - I'm educated enough in the matter to know that there's no way I could be relaxed and still hold the key down, yet my brain is really persistent in convincing me I'm relaxed. Or perhaps it's years of societal indoctrination into the idea of relaxation. I think I'm going to describe the feeling as "comfortable".
I think that the pure lengthening phase I've been through has been absolutely vital (and I'm still pretty certain that it's objectively 100% necessary to be able to play via extending actions if you want to be able to lower the wrist while controlling regular finger actions). However, I'm now feeling as if it might also hold the secret to the more common idea of gripping in with each finger joint. I think different elements can complement each other. I also found yesterday that some students are much better at finding a functional hand shape- if they start by an indirect whole finger pull and then make the switch in activity. Particularly with the fifth, it's not easy to stand quite as fully by lengthening compared to when you pull yourself up from flat to almost vertical. There's certainly plenty of stuff to think about still.
Agreed. I seem to be reaping the rewards of extension. Every time I work on it my whole body seems to transform and opens up, my habits of posture scrambled. I recently did a Ruthy Alon ATM which involves allowing your body to collapse the way wants to, then waiting until it returns itself to an upright position. And even though it takes a long time the first time, it does eventually do it. When I work on the extension action it seems to trigger the same self-righting mechanism that that ATM did. Who knows if it would do the same if I had not previously done that ATM, but the two seem to have linked themselves in my system.
Edit (20.01.13):
Further exploration has provided benefits yet again, this time combined with something that Paul posted on another forum (paraphrased by me): that playing anything should be as easy as playing middle C. So at the moment, my only goal with my playing is to be comfortable. No deadlines, no self imposed judgments, just positive progress with every note I play.
Agreed. I went back to the piano today and did lots of "up" work. I managed to find the slow but steady movement you were describing previously - it's like I've suddenly acquired the ability to play pianissimo consistently, which is all the more significant because my new piano is much louder than my old one. Plus it's starting to feel effortless.
Sounds good. The great thing about drifting up (while feeling a clear preparatory pressure between finger and key) is that you have a means of subtraction that is not in any way similar to repression or deceleration mid-way. This actively permits the finger to accelerate positively and with confidence- without that making the sound loud. When you know you can afford to move with confidence, the movement can become smoother and more deliberate. It seems counterintuitive, but this actually makes it easier to play quietly, in the end. It puts an end to the perpetual feedback loop that has many people alternating between notes that don't sound due to failure to keep the movement going enough and overly loud ones.
By the way, I've come across a kind of "theory of everything" nb. I use that with a touch of sarcasm- so please don't read it as being an outrageous boast. However, I've found a kind of system that integrates all of these issues in a way that is proving very effective- basically in relation to a number of different circles. They can either be practised in isolation (in a particular plane), or integrated all together- but the end result has a compounded movement of the arm in all three dimensions.
Basically the two circles involve BOTH an up and a down and both a forwards and a backwards (and both a left and right). They also function as direct opposites to each other- in line with the Feldenkrais idea of everything being reversible. My old habit was to get stuck forward and then flip backwards. I never returned smoothly back along the same path. I got stuck and then abruptly flicked the reset switch. However, by doing BOTH directions for the circle in practise, you are working smoothly in each direction rather than working in a one sided way. Basically, (if you walked up and down five fingers) one circle would go forwards and up and out to the side when approaching the fifth. Going back to the thumb the third would be the most forward and up point. From there to the thumb you and then backwards and down. After the thumb you are still going down as you go around to the third- at which point you start going forwards and up again. The other is the direct opposite- ie. forward and up towards the thumb and backwards and down towards the fifth.
That is much simpler when demonstrated by sight, but I've been finding tremendous use from this (the integrational aspects go even beyond what I mentioned there- as I also involve slow and subtle forearm rotations in the smooth arm flow) You can never get lost in any one-sided approach to movement. In many pieces where I thought it was obvious which direction of circle to take (eg. Chopin's op. 25 no 1) I learned a huge amount from reversing the direction, regardless. In that Etude, my default would be forward and up and out for the fifth. But by reversing the circle to go backwards and down (and to be coming back inwards, rather than still going out with the elbow as the fifth sounds), I learned much more piercing melodic intensity from the fifth. When I go back to my original forward and up circle, the fifth produces much deeper tone with better sense of contact.
I have to stress that none of this is done outside of the essential need for fingers moving keys (not falling when you do the down part of the circle) but I think this is an extremely valuable way of avoiding the physical dangers of repetitive movement without balancing out the activity. In the Etude I believe I started on the "correct" quality of movement- but that didn't make it any less valuable to reverse the direction altogether and learn something from the experience. My hands are overwhelmingly more "balanced" from this wider range of experience.
To be honest, I don't think it's so odd- if you replace relaxation with comfort. I really like Alan's standing up analogy. I want to write up a fleshing out of quite how much objective similarity exists between how we balance in standing and via finger extension. I wrote most of a blog post about this some time ago and am hoping to come back and finish it within the next few days. Once you get used to standing up, it would feel plain bizarre to droop your knees into a severely bent position and stay there. However, we don't have to think about the basic action of continuing the act of extending our legs to balance gravity- because we are used to it. The fingers are much the same. You just have to be sure you really ARE used to it first- and not using too much effort in the arm to replace the need to the finger to properly use the same extending balancing activity that the legs do. When using indirect finger pulls, I'm now starting to find that feeling I "relax" the action automatically finds that state of balance. I think my prior tendency was not to do the conversion between different styles of activity, as mentioned before. Either I carried on the indirect pull (which requires arm pressure to stop the finger sliding all the way back along the key) or I relaxed altogether. Being more used to the pure extension style of balance means I now tend to slip into that automatically, rather than sag when I "relax" from an indirectly aimed finger pull.
Sounds interesting. I think it really is the most natural, once you've felt it. I find that my "waving" exercise has been very effective with students who tend to want to slump. It very quickly reveals just how much greater the ease is of having opened the hand out wide from a standing thumb- compared to drooping everything down into a slumped position (that actually requires way more effort not to carry on slumping all the way down into a cluster chord).
Absolutely, I'm still finding I get more musical improvement by practising with more attention on movement than sound, in much of my practise. If I'm not moving positively through the keys without any negative movements, I quickly get to the point where my ability to produce an intended intensity of tone improves beyond recognition. If I'm allowing negative movements (many of which are still very easily triggered by intent at musical intensity) fine control goes out the window. Right now, I'd rather place greater attention on the means of controlling my sound with precision (and trust that I'm not going to lose my existing musical intentions).
The other day, I was practising while listening to a spoken word podcast through noise reduction headphones. I could still hear the sound of the piano but greatly muted. When I took them off, after some work at differentiating the physical sensation of melodic notes and softer accompanying chords (in completely free time- with no concern for anything other than smoothness of physical flow and differentiation of intensities of movement), I was pretty stunned by quite how much more separation I'd achieved in the dynamic levels, compared to before. The melody was cleaner and more sonorous than I had expected and the accompaniment had become vastly softer than I'd realised (while still retaining clarity rather than an "empty" quality). I achieved more by severely muting my hearing of the results than I usually do while listening intently.
