Arm weight debate on my website

As always the point of vue of a technician/pianist is very clarifying. A lot of work on the piano is "conceptual" and after reading your post I did for some days play some of my ongoing pieces only thinking in terms of: hammer acceleration/deceleration hammer bounce-off hammer wrap around speed/hammershank flex and I must say this sharpened up my sonority and tone a h.... of a lot. I guess I could add to these "parameters" the hammers initial distance to string. Thinking in these terms made it clear that I've prevously done a lot of completely useless movements that really didn't produce the effect I really searched for. Another thing, there is one way to altere the tone when the hammer leave the string and that's catching up with the pedal, no? As I understand the tone will slightly appear as stronger? I'm sorry that I mix this into a thread supposed to discuss armweight but never the less there is a correlation. Thank you Bob Eric

Thanks Eric. Glad I could point out a few things. All of these things I think become automatic according to what we feel and what we hear coming back to us when we play. Or at least we hope they are. btw, for a concert piano the hammers at rest are as close to the string as you can get them without blocking. This gives the concert pianist much more control than the average person--there the hammers are set at 1/8 to 1/4 inch from the string. The pedal opens up a whole new subject. certainly, when the dampers are up, there is more sound because the entire piano is allowed to vibrate, not just a single key. Then there is the question of fast pedaling, pedaling before/after the note is played, half-pedaling, just ever so slight pedal. It's an entirely different art--but I guess you could say that pedaling weight also applies to changing the tone. And it's not just the damper, but the una corda too, since its use is specifically to change the timbre of the sound (don't use it as a "soft" pedal). How far (on a grand) the una corda pedal is moved will give,many different timbres. If the hammers are voiced correctly. You'll probably have to ask your piano technician to voice the felt between the hammer groves--this is a special art. But well worth having done, so you can achieve some amazing timbrel shifts. -and keep in mind that because the una corda causes the strings to be struck with soft felt, that felt will get hard quite quickly, so that part of the hammer has to be revoiced, often. I guess then we agree that there are many things a pianist can do to change the tone of a note: from finger/hand/arm/body weight on the keys, to foot weight on the pedals. bob t

There's no so called 'arm weight' for piano playing. Arm weight => natural arm weight?? , to chop your arm, put it on the scale , if it is weighted 300g, then you play the piano by using a natural weight of 300g (with an appropriate relaxation manner) to activate the sound through your fingertip and to the piano key without force. The principle mechanism of the piano - lever, will do all other jobs. However, you don't need 300g for piano, why not just play with ease. if use of arm weight as a boxer, it is totally WRONG. However, it seems to be a fasion to play the piano as a boxer nowaday, how sad..... what to say about the sound, tone.... then. I apologize about use of language in the above context.

Though your language is not quite the Queen's English, your ideas are clear and, for me, to the point. Thanks for your contribution! AFF

I think there are two schools of thought on playing. does playing come from the use of the fingers to move the keys or the use of the weight of the arm to move the fingers. There is much debate upon which "school" of technique is correct. When really, to get a good tone and what we want, it takes the fingers/hand/arm being in the proper skeletal position to take advantage of the amount of weight plus force that is delivered to the key. The actual weight needed to move the key in the modern piano is usually between 48 & 52 grams and that's it. Whether I hit the key with a heavy hammer or try to play it with a feather, it will still take apprx. 50g of weight, no more, no less, to get the key to move. The real question is how much force does it take to move the key and how is that force applied to get the hammer to contact the string. the question of can a pianist do things through "weight" to get the tone to change is actually, no. It takes that 50g of weight and we have no control over that. the force and acceleration of the mass of the hammer brought about by that force -- not weight -- applied to the key lever is what changes the tone. If the skeletal structure of the fingers, hands, arms, shoulders, back, body is not correctly aligned to take advantage of and to control that force, our playing, the sound that is made, and also the body will suffer. bob t

Hi I recall that you wrote a post where you mentioned that speed will alter the weight one thing is to put a 50g weight on the key and let it sink but what powers are in play at speed? Eric

Eric, that's a good question. It's quite complicated and too long to answer here, but I'll try to summarize. When we talk about the "weight" required to play the piano, there are actually two types of weight, static and dynamic. The static weight is simply the weight applied to the key to let gravity take over and get the hammer to move up by moving the front of the key, down. Since the hammer has a certain weight, a certain weight at the front of the key lever will make it move. that's generally set at 50 grams. --a heavier feeling piano will be more than this, a lighter one, less. Horowitz piano had a static weight in the 30gs. which is extremely difficult to control. Static weight though does not necessarily indicate whether the piano will feel responsive or sluggish. We are now looking at the weight required to make the piano play quickly. That is determined by its "dynamic" weight. The dynamic weight is more a matter of Newtons's law and involves mass (instead of weight), and acceleration (speed) applied to the mass, which produces the force (perceived weight) to get the hammer moving. Because the hammer and key are at rest, friction needs to be overcome as well sufficient weight applied to let gravity take over and move the key, which moves the internal action, which moves the hammer. The faster we want to have something move, the force of gravity acting upon it (static weight) has less and less effect. It now becomes a matter of how much force does it take (dynamic weight) to move the mass: gravity (the static weight) remains constant. More mass at the hammer end of the key (we want heavy hammers for more tone/color) requires more mass at the front of the key to move it. The key is a lever acting upon the action & hammer. Like a teeter-totter it needs to be balanced to work. More mass requires more force to get it to change from its static state of being still to its dynamic state of moving. That force is determined by the acceleration applied to the mass at the front of the key (we think of it as speed) to get the hammer to move. The point at which the friction, plus the state of rest for the key and hammer to move is called the "moment of inertia." When we play fast, friction increases and all things being equal we feel the touch as "heavy," requiring more effort to play. The static weight has not changed from the 50 grams, but our effort to move those 50 grams (the dynamic weight, or play weight "touch weight") has dramatically increased. Unless something is done to compensate for that effort and moment of inertia, the faster we play, the harder it is to play fast. that's where the design of the piano takes over. Much more work goes into designing a piano that takes into consideration its touchweight. Usually, a better designed piano costs more than a poorly designed one. Even the top pianos, though, come out of the factory essentially the same for their tier of pianos. The factory only has so much time to devote to any one piano. Production has to keep going. The way it comes to you may not allow you to play at the speed you want. That's why you pay extra to have a piano touch weighted. -- it is usually done post-factory, or if you are a know "artist" who will be playing a specific piano, it will be set up in the factory that way, for you (and free of course, since they want people to believe all their instruments are the best). I think it was Paderewski who came from Europe to America to give a concert. He was used to the not only light static weight of his piano, but also to its balanced dynamic weight. When he tried the American piano he found it too heavy for him and called off the concert. If the piano feels heavy, in the strictest sense, it is a matter of static weight. A piano with a "light" touch has a static weight of less than 45g. A piano with a "heavy" touch has a static weight of more than 55g. If the piano feels "sluggish" and you really have to put in effort to get it up to speed or maybe in spite of all you do you can't get it to the speed you want (assuming its not a matter of technique) it is most likely a problem with its dynamic play weight. The piano will have to be rebuilt, redesigned to compensate. I hope this helps. It's a complicated subject. You want the static weight to be enough to build the muscles but not so much to cause injury. You want the dynamic weight to be quite a bit lower, so moving the mass (your speed) requires little effort. Please feel free to send me a private message if I can help you more. Bob T

Thank's Bob! I think I got it this time even if as you say I realize there is a lot more to it. I'll visit the factory that made my piano this spring so I might bother you (privately) with some more questions later- last visit I didn't know what to ask and that was a bit frustrating. Now measuring static weight is easily done but do you have a terminology for measuring dynamic play weight ? When testing golfclubs, with a robot, there is a maximum point where the material won't give any more distance when adding input force.Same thing for a piano-action? I guess you technicians must have a huge advantage when playing. As an amateur I realize that I've on occasions played on some really well-balanced mecanisms without realizing it. Hours of work with a technique adopted for a sluggish piano is just wasted on a good one and might even prevens you from discovering the more subtle possibilities. That's what I like about Alans approach the box contains not one or two tools but a full workshop free to use.Some really crazy stuff might do miracles with speed and relaxation on well-balanced mecanisms. By the way I've suspected that Horowitz presses down the key on different places on the key (sometimes front sometimes end) not only for reasons of handposition but as a way to differentiate "color" we all do it intuitively but as I understand now it's a way to altere the static weight and everyting else in the equation.Just a thought. Best regards Eric

And he problably did it intuitively more than in a calculated way... His ears sought the sound and his fingers went where they knew they would find it... And it's true that many of the things I try to cultivate only really flower on a light, well-regulated mechanism... Thanks for all your contributions, it is such an unknown subject and so worthwhile to gain some really practical knowlege about it.. AFF

Alan, Thanks for your comments. What you say is exactly right. It's really done by intution, sensitivity, playing on a "light, well-regulated mechanism.." all combined with artistry--musicianship and being able to talk to the instrument, hear and feel what it says, then do what it tells you, to get the sound you want. When it comes to playing, a piano technician certainly doesn't have an edge over a musician. But it helps when something goes wrong if the pianist knows just enough to be able to explain what is wrong or what he/she wants, in a way the technician can understand. And Eric, to answer your question: the dynamic weight of the mechanism, what you feel when you play is called "touchweight." Bob T