Arm Weight & Piano Technique - What About FUNCTION?

I've been browsing through a long exchange between cziffra and arhidesign about this and that, and amongst other things, arm weight. I have always enjoyed cziffra's real dedication and highly perceptive understanding of what's going on physically when we play piano, but have also always been a bit worried about the continued obsession with the actual mass and weight of the arm participating in the activity. This next is an attempt to clear it up once and for all. There's a poster on the wall of the Feldenkrais Training Centre in Paris, France, that says, "GRAVITY: IT'S THE LAW." Feldenkrais's whole method is based on how the human body is designed to act WITHIN THE FIELD OF GRAVITY. So it's not like I want to dismiss arm weight as irrelevant: I actually want to bring it even more into the picture. Weight is in the background of everything we do. Lie on your back with your legs bent comfortably above you. Now straighten your legs more or less towards the ceiling. Now squat, sit on your heels, and again straighten your legs. This is exactly the same action, but it is an entirely different FUNCTION. #1 is relatively meaningless: the legs move, but they don't achieve anything. They just get longer. #2 on the other hand is full of meaning and potency: the legs are the instrument by which we between us and gravity. The human body was designed to do everything in the field of gravity. Standing, walking, running, jumping, sitting, even lying down cannot happen without gravity. It really is the law and it is really essential to every aspect of our functioning. They've done all sorts of research into the effects of extended weightlessness on astronauts, and they find that there are very profound negative consequences to the overall functioning of the individual. Now we come to the Arm Weight School of piano technique. It seems to me that traditionally, the whole concept of arm weight at the piano takes place in the context of Example #1 instead of #2. It seems to me that essentially what they are saying is the following: "Try to create the illusion that you are in a weightLESS environment. Feel the weight of your arm but don't let it drop down heavily as it automatically would if you really just let it go. "Let it go" but DON'T let it go, make it float in space like an astronaut. Once having succeeded in creating this sensory illusion, maintain that perception and now try to play the piano." To me it's insane. If I want to take gravity into account at the keyboard, I would address . I would, for instance, let my almost flat fingers rest on the keys with my heavy wrist and forearm as low as gravity will take them, and then make a concentrated effort in my lumbricals to pull my hand and forearm forward and up. This is the pianistic equivalent of standing. I would then try the same movement but through a series of four notes. Let's say I put my right hand 2nd on C, 3rd on D, 4th on E and 5th on F. I very slightly begin that lumbrical pulling in my 2nd finger to play C. I continue the pull. This initiates a rising of my wrist. I then pull with my 3rd finger lumbrical thus playing D, which allows my wrist to rise further and also diagonally to the right. I continue through the four notes, WITHOUT ANY HITCH IN THE MOVEMENT. When you squat and then stand up, you do it in one movement, not in segments. Try to make the "stand up diagonally" movement through those four notes as smooth as the movement would be if you stood up from a squat using your legs. This to me invokes gravity in an essential and meaningful manner. Where is "Arm Weight" technique as we traditionally know it in what I have just described? NOWHERE!!!! I rest my case. AFF

Do you get it, Andrew? By continually perceiving your arm weight and then calibrating how much to let it go and how much to hold it back, you are continually messing with the fundamental fundamental functional relationship of the hand to key. That relationship is one of connection. By holding back the weight I reduce the connection. There must be a better way to control things. AFF

Do you get it, Andrew? By continually perceiving your arm weight and then calibrating how much to let it go and how much to hold it back, you are continually messing with the fundamental fundamental functional relationship of the hand to key. That relationship is one of connection. By holding back the weight I reduce the connection. There must be a better way to control things. AFF Actually, that's a very interesting point. It helps clarify how we are certainly looking at the same thing but describing it from a different perspective. What I'm referring to is nothing remotely like example 1, but the means of making sure it is exactly like example 2. When you stand up, it's the gravity of your whole torso that makes it possible for the those actions to be so much more productive. They can't work so hard in thin air, as they only act against their own mass. This is a very similar thing to what I view gravity as doing in with the key. HOWEVER- the key difference is that you cannot change your weight when you stand up. When "standing" at a piano, you are controlling how much of your arm's weight is involved. It's not the same constant as in standing, but something that you must determine very precisely through how much the arm witholds/releases. This is what I regard as the missing element in integrating everything into one whole. It can sometimes evolve by itself, but I believe this is as worthy of conscious study as the arch etc. In the exercise you describe, the productive part of the finger's activity happens BECAUSE of the right amount of gravitational force being set up to activate against. If there is not enough release, it turns into example 1. You need gravity to turn into example 2, but not so much as to turn it into example 2 plus a rucksack full of bricks. Overlightening also explains why fingers can slide off keys sometimes. They need the right amount of release/lightening in the arm, for their action to go into any function at all. There are two ways to miss a balance, not just one. For a time, I got too carried away with lightening the arm and had to return to releasing more "ballast" for the finger to operate against. In fact, even now I sometimes notice fingers "falling" into a key but other times notice a little stiffening to compensate for too little release. I'm still having to approach it from both ends. Did you get any chance to read my blog post about the movement issues in general? It's quite long, but I'd be really interested in your Feldenkrais perspective if you have a chance. It's basically about seeing all movements and actions as much from their opposite as from the way we usually see them- with a view to trying to combining two (seeming) opposites into one rounded viewpoint. I agree that it involves holding back weight. But if you hold back too much, you are literally pulled forwards and upwards by every finger action. Or worse still, some people will fight that and try to hold the wrist in the same spot with effort. If you release the RIGHT amount of weight it's not a fall. It just allows the finger to do the productive action that you described above. It's invisible, precisely because you have done it correctly, not because it doesn't happen. Also any spare momentum is absorbed via the slow resistance of weight, so it slows very smoothly without an abrupt halt. This is why downward actions are higher impact- rather than slowing the "spare" movement down gradually it accelerates it even further- leading to a violent stop rather than a slow, smooth one. In terms of the dualistic approach I described, I want to see this from both sides- not just the lightening side or the releasing side. But either viewpoint can potentially be harmful, if you don't reference back to the other. Sometimes I want to see how much I'm reducing weight release enough to stop the finger working against too much, But other times I want to feel the release as a positive requirement for the finger to have the chance to function as in example 2 (and for the follow-through of the wrist and arm to be 'internalised', as you refer to it). Both of these can feel a little different- but they should actually be exactly the same thing from a different viewpoint. When mastered, there should be a single feeling that has been informed by both perspectives. Also, it's interesting what you say about the productive movements. I'm thinking a lot of about the role of momentum motions and those that are more steadily controlled. It's a very similar issue to what you describe there. Have you played the Wii bowling game? If you imagine a 12kg bowling ball, it send a hell of a lot of momentum into your joints, when the energy has nowhere productive to go. When you put it into a real bowling ball, it actually feels like less effort. I'm realising that in perceptive terms, 'effort' has a lot to do with the impact of where the movement stops. Purely in mechanical terms, moving the ball is obviously more "effort" in how much energy is used. But in perceptive terms, swinging a light controller around too hard can actually feel like more effort. I think this has a lot to do with what goes on at the keyboard. I think the correct release of gravity is exactly what turns one of those fast but unproductive movements into a slower one that is felt to impart substantial power without leaving spare momentum. It's absolutely the opposite of a fall, yes, but it's totally dependent on how much force is generated by the level of witholding/releasing the arm's weight. I think it's vital to clarify the difference between falling and merely providing a counterforce to activate against.

I'm not going to vote "agree" btw, but I wouldn't go as far as "disagree" either. We are definitely looking at the same thing. By the way, I think a lot of this comes across better from diagrams to show the direction of different forces. Hopefully the above is reasonably clear from words, but I'll be using some illustrations on the blog soon. Treating an arm as coldly as it it were nothing more than a series of loose hinges on a diagram just led to an incredible revelation about how to release the wrist while supportignt the entire structure in a stable position. I can't believe just how simple it actually is!

Example #1: Lie on your back with your legs bent comfortably above you. Now straighten your legs more or less towards the ceiling. Example #2: Now squat, sit on your heels, and again straighten your legs. This is exactly the same action, but it is an entirely different FUNCTION. It pretty much resembles the lecture you had this summer in Novi Sad. It's really helpful because it enhances the perception you have towards your arms as you play. However when "standing" at the piano we "get/stand up" and adjust this equilibrium with the help of our knuckles/wrists/elbows/shoulders. When actually getting up from the squating position we are straightening only by the means of our knees. You yourself said that the whole "piano playing apparatus" has 3 gyroscopes. Given that how can we ignore the control of the ballast and hope the 3 segments will attain an equilibrium by themselves? Since I had lessons with Alan my speed has improved, my ear has improved, my overall relaxation has also improved. I have run over all the studies from the Piano and Performance books from Bastien's Primer Level Piano Books as prima vista material. I learned a prelude and 2 menuets from Bach, 2 pieces from Tchaikovsky's Album for the Young but I'm convinced that I'm failing in something related to this musical-physics-mecanics debate. My tone cannot get strong without loosing its softness and silkyness, if you know what I mean. I want to emphasize that I often have this problem of fingers sliding off the keys. Does this mean that I'm witholding too much? If we apply Alan's point of view(which is very logical) this means that I'm lying on my back? But how can I lie on my back if playing piano is associated with standing up? If perceiving the arm weight during playing is of no importance then why are my fingers sliding off the key? I cannot say Alan is not right nor that he is. I just want to clarify things and improve my playing. I also have this problem. Though it's not so obvious. But it sometimes has a "dancing" aspect. I think that what Andrew has tried to explain in his posts and on his new blog is that sometimes you have to turn that playstation controller into a real ball. This can be done by supplying it with more weight. Thus you can prevent you body from playing you tricks. If you want to get the ball to the right spot and with the right force, you have to feel the real weight. It's the same at the keyboard. You don't have the chance to see how much force a key really needs if you don't have the necessary stability and prop. It's as you would try to push a box or something with your feet standing on ice.

I agree with Alan's point of view, but I also think that these things are very subjective and are dependent on our own mental image of what happens as we play. I am obviously "programmed" to agree with Alan because I purchased his DVD as a piano beginner, about 4 months after starting from scratch. So I have learned to perceive my action on the piano in the terms that Alan uses. Andrew on the other hand, is a very advanced experienced pianist with years of certain habits and mental perceptions. I don't think it makes sense for him (or even possible) to "forget" everything he knows and adopt Alan's point of view completely. I think what he is doing (and correct me if I am wrong, I haven't read all of Andrew's posts) is trying to meld his current perception with Alan's point of view and find a way for both mental images to coexist in his mind when playing. To summarize, I would say that I agree that Alan's view of arm weight technique is good for at my current stage of playing. I don't think it is necessarily good for Andrew at this point in time. Arhidesign - if I remember correctly you are also relatively a beginner/intermediate player. I would suggest that you do not bother yourself with arm weight AT ALL at this stage. You need to get your fingers much more active rather than trying to do the more advanced fine tuning that Andrew is talking about. We cannot learn too many things at once. If you focus too much on feeling or witholding the weight of your arm you run the risk of letting your fingers becoming inactive. I would really suggest that you follow Alan's walking execises from the DVD and teach your hand to walk on the keyboard properly and maintain it's optimal structure. They look simple but it takes a long time to make them second nature. Only when walking is secure enough you can start experimenting with more advanced techniques (like those in Alan's 2nd book "honing", or Andrew's blog). (BTW Andrew, I mean no disrespect to you by making this recommendation, I am simply sharing my experience of focusing on the fundamentals of Alan's method) Zack

"To summarize, I would say that I agree that Alan's view of arm weight technique is good for at my current stage of playing. I don't think it is necessarily good for Andrew at this point in time. " Actually, what I'm stressing is that what I'm doing is EXACTLY as Alan describes- except in the sense that I wish to be conscious of the interaction between the arm's release and the finger's action. This is my only difference- not the product but the width of perceptive focus. Alan's post actually gives a very good description of exactly what I'm aiming for myself. I couldn't be further away from his "armweight" description. I'm just concerned by what happens if the arm does not figure out how to regulate the finger's chance at productivity. I want to cross-reference between the hand and the release a lot more. It's been notable just how well my hand has improved since I've spent more time on weight issues. Funnily enough, Alan's description is a very good way of looking at the wrist weights issue. It makes it much easier for the finger to work as in example 2 than in example 1. "Arhidesign - if I remember correctly you are also relatively a beginner/intermediate player. I would suggest that you do not bother yourself with arm weight AT ALL at this stage. You need to get your fingers much more active rather than trying to do the more advanced fine tuning that Andrew is talking about." I couldn't agree, based on what I saw in the videos. To my eyes, he's very much closer to example 1 rather than 2. The hand looks capable of superb structure already- at least much of the time. But it's skating so lightly across the keys it needs a little more to work with. You cannot create structure without0 something for forces to act against. The point about sliding off keys is very revealing for me. That suggests too little release. You could refer to this in terms of seizure or effort, say. But it's the force (or "function") that results from release that is relevant, from a mechanical view. However, my point is not that it's all about "releasing" or "lightening", but that you should always be looking at it from different ends- until you converge on the point where you can feel that it's just right. Remember that none of this has anything to do with blind collapse or release. It's all in the context of what the fingers do- but the fingers can't do anything much at all if they are not supported by something. I think Arhidesign's post suggests that he's definitely on the same wavelength. It's like he's trying to swing the wii controller hard, but he doesn't feel it's going into something- like when you put the effort into a real bowling ball. When the problem is from that side, I think there's very good cause to look at releasing more weight- but NOT collapsing or falling!!! "We cannot learn too many things at once. If you focus too much on feeling or witholding the weight of your arm you run the risk of letting your fingers becoming inactive." But that just means you don't even know what it's doing, surely? That's fine if it works, but I believe that it's vital to cross-reference both parts of the balance. When you overlighten, that the fingers cannot activate properly into anything. Missing the balance on that sides underuses them as surely as a collapse. One thing I'll be doing on the blog is giving a series of preparatory exercises for getting the arm ready before playing. It's easy to become too heavy or light in the arm, but I'm preparing exercises that should give a clear feel for how to improve from either side. Basically, I'm working on ways of distinguishing between the bad perceptions of weight that Alan rightly describes as being harmful. But i don't want to throw it out. I want a clearer description than the traditional one- a description that integrates with the fingers fully, instead of claiming to replace them. One thing I'd say though, is that I'm seeing Alan's perspective about the arm more and more. My only disagreement is in whether it helps to understand the arm's role or not. It's becoming a lot less effortful to stabilise my arm.Weighing up forwards and backward rather than up/down has been a massive aid to this. I think I figured out a model that might be rather interesting. There's a way to make the forearm EXTREMELY absorbent of reaction forces from the keys, but in a way where the fingers don't actually have to work especially hard to stabilise the arm's weight. It's nothing to do with balancing a heavy downforce. I'll explain it with diagrams sometime, but I have a strong feeling that this must be very close to what Alan is using. However, I cannot stress enough how much recent focus on regulation of the arm has gone into creating this state for me- as well as how much this has transferred into benefits to the hand. Personally, I want to look very much at both sides, (so as to regulate the finger's scope for productivity) rather than go so exclusively on the hand side of the balance.

Well I voted YES because within the stipulated limitations I agree. And frankly I can't see how a no is possible. Trying not to be pertinent, but what is the meaning of "functional"? More popular connotations or more scientific? I beleive a common error with armweight is to confound it with efficient movement of arms and overall release. This struck me like a flash when I read a comment of Alan's regarding Hoffmans "style". If I got Andrew right he is not talking about armweight in the traditional meaning but about what happens at impact and after impact and trying to map the vectors in play. There is a placebo-effect in pianoplaying as in medicin sometimes whatever you do change to whatever will feel as an improvement. If the improvement lasts then finding out why is another thing. Armweight has obviously some less desirable connotations so maybe, Andrew, you should find another word. Gravity itself is a constant in physics.

"Armweight has obviously some less desirable connotations so maybe, Andrew, you should find another word." Well, i think there's no better word for it, but i simpyl want to correct misunderstood assumptions about it. i think a lot of the problems are based on attributing gravity but using muscles to do things. I believe the removal of the up/down thinking and replacing it with forwards/backwards thinking is the answer to this. The most important act of gravity is how it pulls the elbow backwards. Remove the ideas "gravity instead of the finger" "gravity=down" and "down=gravity" from the mind and you're already well on the road to a healthier understanding of what gravity really does. You don't have to get involved in pretending it doesn't do anything to correct those common errors. in fact, i believe that correcting the understanding is far more useful than trying to ignore it. "Gravity itself is a constant in physics." Yeah, sorry, I should be careful to state in terms of more of the resultant force being released- rather than imply that gravity itself is variable.

Arhidesign - if I remember correctly you are also relatively a beginner/intermediate player. I would suggest that you do not bother yourself with arm weight AT ALL at this stage. You need to get your fingers much more active rather than trying to do the more advanced fine tuning that Andrew is talking about. We cannot learn too many things at once. If you focus too much on feeling or witholding the weight of your arm you run the risk of letting your fingers becoming inactive. I would really suggest that you follow Alan's walking execises from the DVD and teach your hand to walk on the keyboard properly and maintain it's optimal structure. They look simple but it takes a long time to make them second nature. Only when walking is secure enough you can start experimenting with more advanced techniques (like those in Alan's 2nd book "honing", or Andrew's blog). (BTW Andrew, I mean no disrespect to you by making this recommendation, I am simply sharing my experience of focusing on the fundamentals of Alan's method) Zack Thank you Eric for expressing something clearly that I have been trying to get straight in my own mind... Yes I would also extend this advice to arhidesign.... AFF