Arm Out Or In The Piano

Hello, Could not figure something out-I currently play Chopin op 25 etude no 2 -left hand-i do the minimal standing up motion for each finger (cause of the speed),but,do i take the arm and thus the fingers out or in the piano? I am confused by now and have no idea when to use either the out motion or in motion? Thank you!

The main left hand arm motion is "in" towards the center of the keyboard to swoop the thumb to its note. The arm does not go "out" again for the next bass note. It just "recedes" a little to prepare the next inward swoop or scoop. AFF

Ok ,i think i understood. Is there a rule or a way to know when to swoop the hand out or in?Does that depend on the note's sound i want to achieve? (hand in with a half circle makes the note at which the hands drop louder?) Thank you!

I think you have to discover these things by trying them out. That's how I did it. By the way, the hand NEVER drops to increase the loudness of the note! AFF

I had some ideas on this recently. Totally agreed with alan that we shouldn't tend to think of dropping to produce volume. However, that said, down movements are the most limiting to softness. So I wouldn't say drop to get volume but rather to go up where you DON'T want volume (usually at the end of a phrase). Of course, in something like two note slurs- that means dropping more on the strong and rising more on the weak. But the movement is defined by the sheer importance of phrasing off and not by looking to use the downward to do the work of the finger. It's a little more sophisticated than saying down for louder notes. Up movements are fit for loud or soft, but it's only because down movements make it hard to get a really soft sound that they're best "used up" on a strong moment. It's not about dropping to help make tone, so much as putting it where it doesn't ruin the need for super fine control. For this reason, I regularly do down and back on the bass and forwards and up on the middle. Even when voicing the thumb, I find a down movement seems really coarse. Not that the bass needs to be very loud, but it's the least likely place for a subtle accent to be ruinous. The middle parts need much finer control, so I use the up part there- leaving a slight down as a requirement on the bass to prepare for this. There are some pieces where I've sometimes begun using the opposite direction of circle, but it always comes from deciding where I want the up movement for control of softer notes before then being left with the down part on notes that can take it. Doing a Waltz with the down in the middle is something I've heard suggested, but it seems wildly inappropriately to me. Far easier to phrase from bass to chord like a slur, usually.

Sorry, just to clarify, I think of forward as being intrinsically linked to an up quality and back as being linked to the slight down. In case if any confusion, when I say up and down in that post they're always linked in that way.

Yes, I totally agree that it is much harder to go down and play softly at the same time,with the up movement it is much easier ,and it makes more sense to play softly.But ,won't you agree that if we are using the up movement to play softly, then the opposite is the same-meaning going down to make it a bit more loud,like the slure example you gave? you go down on the first note of the slure in order to make it a bit louder and up on the second note to make it softer...wont you agree? As far as the Chopin Etude i think my problem was that i was looking to go way down than i should of with my hand and arm of each note of every new bar (left hand),so i discovered that i should go downwards but not too much,and on the last note of each bar i go downwards as well to prepare the motion of the fifth finger again, as the beginning of the new bar. Another problem i encountered in Liszt vallee d obermann-the first bars of the right hand:should i slide on each chord or do the stand up of the MCP?I think it is more logical to slide in, correct? The slid in motion produces softer sound than the grasping motion?

Yes, I totally agree that it is much harder to go down and play softly at the same time,with the up movement it is much easier ,and it makes more sense to play softly.But ,won't you agree that if we are using the up movement to play softly, then the opposite is the same-meaning going down to make it a bit more loud,like the slure example you gave? you go down on the first note of the slure in order to make it a bit louder and up on the second note to make it softer...wont you agree? As far as the Chopin Etude i think my problem was that i was looking to go way down than i should of with my hand and arm of each note of every new bar (left hand),so i discovered that i should go downwards but not too much,and on the last note of each bar i go downwards as well to prepare the motion of the fifth finger again, as the beginning of the new bar. Another problem i encountered in Liszt vallee d obermann-the first bars of the right hand:should i slide on each chord or do the stand up of the MCP?I think it is more logical to slide in, correct? The slid in motion produces softer sound than the grasping motion? It's arguably true, but at soon as you start associating sinking with being the means to a louder sound, the fingers instantly get lazy. It's one reason why I keep changing directions of circles in practise, even though I have a preferred one. The fifth fingers easily switches into merely resisting the drop, rather than actually moving the key. For quick slurs, I actually perceive the down purely to reset for another up. Yes, it does contribute to slightly more sound but if I start making that a conscious premise I can easily overdo it. Staccato is a good comparison. I never think of a down movement to move the key or my hand gets compressed. My hand does go down after exploding out and up, but I have to completely divorce this from my conception of moving the key. I practise coming back to the keys and pausing, so I'm extra sure the key movement is purely an up rather than part of the down movement itself. The down is literally a return and nothing more. I wouldn't blend the two before mastering a pure collapse free up. It's arguably the same with two notes slurs in Beethoven's tempest. To get them light, it's more like both notes are integrated into an up movement, with the down part merely reseting, rather than actively weighing down for the first. I think it would be really odd to slide on those chords other than as a practise method. I tend to use finger lengthening, but integrate them into slower wrist movements up and down (with at least three or four chords per direction). If you did slide it would need to be a similarly long organisational movement, that goes slow and involves multiple repetitions. Sliding and resetting once per chord wouldn't give any fine control.

Actually there's a pretty simple way to clarify this. Consider that up movements are equally good for quiet OR loud moments, when our hands work well. Whereas down movements are useless for control of anything in the most quiet range. The only conclusion we should draw is the down movements are most limited in what they can successfully be applied to- not that up movements are only for quiet bits or that anything louder necessarily demands a down movement. I apply down movements more based on a process of elimination regarding where they can't go, rather than on the basis that each strong moment actually needs a down. Necessary down movements are best applied to stronger moments, but stronger moments don't in any way demand a down rather than an up.

So on the Liszt example i gave you recommend to lengthen the fingers and do slower up and down movement with the wrist. I think this is exactly where i am confused,because i thought that the fingers always do the work of playing the keys (meaning MCP rising up),so if here, i lengthen the fingers and use the wrist in that way, the fingers dont move the keys... No?