Advice About Playing Arpeggios

Arpeggios are an aspect of technique that I've been looking into recently (since everything I've been playing seems to have sweeping left hand arpeggios somewhere). I made some progress with them a few months back, making sure that all the notes were connected. This gave me a great sense of security with them and for a while I gradually notched the speed up until I hit a speed wall. As I understand it, at high speed it's not possible to connect the notes with a thumb under movement so one uses quick position shifts (the so called 'thumb over' method?). The problem I have is that there is always an audible gap between the notes in such a shift. This is partly caused by the lack of control I currently have over the dynamics in such a quick shift, and possibly because I'm not going fast enough to hide the gap. I'd appreciate any advice in this respect, since this is currently a gaping hole in my technique. I'm sure everyone here has struggled with arpeggios at some point. Here are a couple of questions with specifics I'm trying to understand: 1. Should I be using the same kind of forearm rotation used to navigate large intervals? 2. Does a large finger activation help propel the lateral movement of the arm? 3. Would practising this the same way as the 'no shake scales' (i.e. out the back door, with the heel of the hand on the key slip) help out here? I realise that these are all things I can try out myself (which I have been doing), but I think some advice would get me on the right track and out of the rut that I'm stuck in. Thanks in advance.

As is usually the case, typing out my thoughts and questions has clarified the difficulties I been having. Since my previous post I been experimenting with different practice methods for arpeggios, and I thought I'd post them as they might be useful for others: 1. Since one aspect of fast arpeggios is the reliable shift of position up and down octaves, my first port of call has been to practice just that shift with nothing else. Specifically, since my movement was either over controlled or completely lacking in control, I put a small constraint on the movement. I've been playing a broken octave and rotating my forearm so as to get the thumb above the fifth finger's note, then playing the same octave an octave higher (talk about a complex way to explain something so simple!). It's what Alan does in the chapter on the DVD (part of a Chopin Ballade, I think). This has proven useful in generating a steady lateral movement of the arm. I do variations such as putting a fifth in between the octaves, or even the third and the fifth, but still making sure that both finger five and the thumb both play the upper note. Then all I need to do is miss out the fifth finger and I've got a normal arpeggio with no duplication. If my explanation is still as clear as mud I'll create a .pdf file showing what I mean. 2. The other major aspect of fast arpeggios seems to be dynamic control. Sometimes I'll do the octave shift quick enough but it'll still sound like there's a gap due to one of the notes being louder than the other. I've noticed that it's possible to give the impression of legato even with a gap present in a slow arpeggio is the dynamics are even - the intent of legato is there. I think this is what Alan calls , though I didn't understand it until today. I've been practising the hand shift but not playing the notes straight away - it gives me the chance to control them the way I want. I imagine to get the control in action I'll need to develop my dynamic control when my fingers aren't on key. 3. Just a thought, but does anyone here play normal triadic arpeggios with four notes per hand hand shift? For C major it's mean you play C E G C with 1 2 3 5, then play E G C E with 1 2 4 5, and so on up the keyboard. It seems to beat playing the same notes 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 - less shifting around. Any thoughts?

Nick, I have been thinking and experimenting a bit with this, and concerning playing legato triads thumbs under I find that quite impossible with the traditional fingering, especially CM. The method you mention in part three is interesting, but I am now experimenting with a fingering that so far works very fine with triads in C, F and G major. Starting on root I use the following fingering for right hand: 2 3 1. There may be scales where the conventional fingering works better, so there is a lot of things to work out. I have also adopted the following principle for my practice: Learning scales and arpeggios and broken chords is of secondary importance, what matters is improving dexterity and rhythmic and dynamic control to the point where the exercises becomes an enjoyable experience in musical expression. Well, that should not be a revolutionary idea on this forum, or anywhere else for that matter.

Nick, I have been thinking and experimenting a bit with this, and concerning playing legato triads thumbs under I find that quite impossible with the traditional fingering, especially CM. The method you mention in part three is interesting, but I am now experimenting with a fingering that so far works very fine with triads in C, F and G major. Starting on root I use the following fingering for right hand: 2 3 1. There may be scales where the conventional fingering works better, so there is a lot of things to work out. Casaet, I agree that the traditional fingering can be awkward. I can just manage the tradition fingering for the triads you mention, but even with rotation there has to be some swivelling. The fingering you've suggested matches what the left hand has to do in a root position arpeggio. Some extended arpeggios can be awkward to play. Bbmaj6 (Bb D F G) and Bbm6 (Bb Db F G) spring to mind for the left hand - I'd normally finger them 4 3 2 1, but that's quite a stretch, particularly for the major one. The nice thing about extended arpeggios is that the extra note(s) means that usually there's less distance to shift the hand. Add9 arpeggios for the right hand are nasty, though, unless fingered carefully. I have also adopted the following principle for my practice: Learning scales and arpeggios and broken chords is of secondary importance, what matters is improving dexterity and rhythmic and dynamic control to the point where the exercises becomes an enjoyable experience in musical expression. Well, that should not be a revolutionary idea on this forum, or anywhere else for that matter. Yes, I agree with the sentiment. I'd also add that the exercises should also become an enjoyable experience in movement.

Arpeggios are an aspect of technique that I've been looking into recently (since everything I've been playing seems to have sweeping left hand arpeggios somewhere). I made some progress with them a few months back, making sure that all the notes were connected. This gave me a great sense of security with them and for a while I gradually notched the speed up until I hit a speed wall. As I understand it, at high speed it's not possible to connect the notes with a thumb under movement so one uses quick position shifts (the so called 'thumb over' method?). The problem I have is that there is always an audible gap between the notes in such a shift. This is partly caused by the lack of control I currently have over the dynamics in such a quick shift, and possibly because I'm not going fast enough to hide the gap. I'd appreciate any advice in this respect, since this is currently a gaping hole in my technique. I'm sure everyone here has struggled with arpeggios at some point. Here are a couple of questions with specifics I'm trying to understand: 1. Should I be using the same kind of forearm rotation used to navigate large intervals? 2. Does a large finger activation help propel the lateral movement of the arm? 3. Would practising this the same way as the 'no shake scales' (i.e. out the back door, with the heel of the hand on the key slip) help out here? I realise that these are all things I can try out myself (which I have been doing), but I think some advice would get me on the right track and out of the rut that I'm stuck in. Thanks in advance. There a few things I'd recommend here. Firstly, I think it's essential to be capable of literal legato first. I always get students to play the thumb and 3 or 4 together and settle into a position where the arm hangs back properly. Virtually every student starts with the arm held awkwardly forward- which is why this literal thumb under position often gets to be so uncomfortable. Let the arm hang back from a shoulder that stays back and 99% of the time any wrist swivelling gets pulled straight and the position starts to feel fine. I think thumb over is often used to compensate for having yet to find full comfort here- but I think that being intimately acquainted with an easy passing position is a big issue in doing thumb over well. Personally, I came to realise that I basically ducked out of this issue for way too long. After this, I'd cease clinging on to both fingers but practise allowing the reaction force to move you. As the thumb plays, the whole arm should realign itself as if by magic. The thumb moves and the whole hand and arm are allowed to respond. If you can make this happens from a literal thumb under, thumb over gets way easier. For the final step, I think the classic mistake is to try to crank the arm over. I'm finding that decent thumb over is so quick, any gap is literally inaudible. It's not just an illusion of legato, because movement is too fast for any hole to register. If you angle the hand slightly, the reaction forces can be enough to throw the arm with virtually no perception of trying to move it. I think thumb over is virtually impossible to do well from stationary starts. The previous finger needs to propell you across- so it basically just occurs by itself.

There a few things I'd recommend here. Firstly, I think it's essential to be capable of literal legato first. I always get students to play the thumb and 3 or 4 together and settle into a position where the arm hangs back properly. Virtually every student starts with the arm held awkwardly forward- which is why this literal thumb under position often gets to be so uncomfortable. Let the arm hang back from a shoulder that stays back and 99% of the time any wrist swivelling gets pulled straight and the position starts to feel fine. I think thumb over is often used to compensate for having yet to find full comfort here- but I think that being intimately acquainted with an easy passing position is a big issue in doing thumb over well. Personally, I came to realise that I basically ducked out of this issue for way too long. After this, I'd cease clinging on to both fingers but practise allowing the reaction force to move you. As the thumb plays, the whole arm should realign itself as if by magic. The thumb moves and the whole hand and arm are allowed to respond. If you can make this happens from a literal thumb under, thumb over gets way easier. For the final step, I think the classic mistake is to try to crank the arm over. I'm finding that decent thumb over is so quick, any gap is literally inaudible. It's not just an illusion of legato, because movement is too fast for any hole to register. If you angle the hand slightly, the reaction forces can be enough to throw the arm with virtually no perception of trying to move it. I think thumb over is virtually impossible to do well from stationary starts. The previous finger needs to propell you across- so it basically just occurs by itself. Thanks Andrew, I think you're right about finding a comfortable way of getting the thumb under. I did have a blitz on thumb under a while back and found that the comfort improved, but I know I've still got a long way to go. I understand what you mean about the speed of the movement in thumb over. I think I've managed to experience it on one occasion. I've been working on improving the functionality of my thumbs recently and that has helped a lot.

There a few things I'd recommend here. Firstly, I think it's essential to be capable of literal legato first. I always get students to play the thumb and 3 or 4 together and settle into a position where the arm hangs back properly. Virtually every student starts with the arm held awkwardly forward- which is why this literal thumb under position often gets to be so uncomfortable. Let the arm hang back from a shoulder that stays back and 99% of the time any wrist swivelling gets pulled straight and the position starts to feel fine. I think thumb over is often used to compensate for having yet to find full comfort here- but I think that being intimately acquainted with an easy passing position is a big issue in doing thumb over well. Personally, I came to realise that I basically ducked out of this issue for way too long. After this, I'd cease clinging on to both fingers but practise allowing the reaction force to move you. As the thumb plays, the whole arm should realign itself as if by magic. The thumb moves and the whole hand and arm are allowed to respond. If you can make this happens from a literal thumb under, thumb over gets way easier. For the final step, I think the classic mistake is to try to crank the arm over. I'm finding that decent thumb over is so quick, any gap is literally inaudible. It's not just an illusion of legato, because movement is too fast for any hole to register. If you angle the hand slightly, the reaction forces can be enough to throw the arm with virtually no perception of trying to move it. I think thumb over is virtually impossible to do well from stationary starts. The previous finger needs to propell you across- so it basically just occurs by itself. Thanks Andrew, I think you're right about finding a comfortable way of getting the thumb under. I did have a blitz on thumb under a while back and found that the comfort improved, but I know I've still got a long way to go. I understand what you mean about the speed of the movement in thumb over. I think I've managed to experience it on one occasion. I've been working on improving the functionality of my thumbs recently and that has helped a lot. Yeah, an extremely active thumb is very important. The thing I discovered recently is just how much the previous finger has to help it get there first, though, before it can do its job. This has made a huge difference to raw speed, recently. I think good thumb over hinges equally on both elements. A good exercise is rest the hand lightly on a table, with all knuckles raised but a slight slant towards the fifth. Try pulling from the fingers and feeling how it rocks everything over and pulls the thumb across. I think this is the secret to getting the thumb across, before it performs its action. Incidentally, even at high speeds I often perceive this as being closer to under than over-especially in scales. Although the thumb scarcely reaches under the palm, it's very different to the kind of action where the arm tries to whip the thumb over the top. It often keeps very low.

Andrew, when you say that letting the arm hang back causes wrist swivelling to get pulled straight, do you mean that the fingers form a straight line with the arm as opposed to the hand being ulnarly deviated? I've being experimenting with your suggestion of making sure the arm hangs back, and it does seems to help, however, I find myself doing something much closer to swivelling rather than the pronation that Alan suggests. If I pronate the arm to get the thumb under I end up with quite a large movement of my elbow upwards and away from my torso. In some variations of this I end up with a build up of tension along the outer ridge of my hand. I haven't yet discovered what causes this. If I don't pronate the arm then I end up with a small amount of swivelling. I start the arpeggio with my hand deviated ulnarly, otherwise I'd have to play the second and third notes between the black keys (I'm talking about any triadic arpeggio consisting only of white notes, by the way). By the time I get to putting the thumb under, all of the ulnar deviation has gone and my hand forms a straight line with my arm - they end up at about a 45 degree angle to the keys. This actually feels quite comfortable, but does seem to have and adverse effect of speed. I'm not sure how best to proceed. I can't reach any further with my thumb - it's already touching the base of my fifth finger. I imagine there's a way to do the pronation without generating loads of tension along the outer ridge of my hand. It's something I struggled with a few months back when I started to improve my arpeggios.

Andrew, when you say that letting the arm hang back causes wrist swivelling to get pulled straight, do you mean that the fingers form a straight line with the arm as opposed to the hand being ulnarly deviated? I've being experimenting with your suggestion of making sure the arm hangs back, and it does seems to help, however, I find myself doing something much closer to swivelling rather than the pronation that Alan suggests. If I pronate the arm to get the thumb under I end up with quite a large movement of my elbow upwards and away from my torso. In some variations of this I end up with a build up of tension along the outer ridge of my hand. I haven't yet discovered what causes this. If I don't pronate the arm then I end up with a small amount of swivelling. I start the arpeggio with my hand deviated ulnarly, otherwise I'd have to play the second and third notes between the black keys (I'm talking about any triadic arpeggio consisting only of white notes, by the way). By the time I get to putting the thumb under, all of the ulnar deviation has gone and my hand forms a straight line with my arm - they end up at about a 45 degree angle to the keys. This actually feels quite comfortable, but does seem to have and adverse effect of speed. I'm not sure how best to proceed. I can't reach any further with my thumb - it's already touching the base of my fifth finger. I imagine there's a way to do the pronation without generating loads of tension along the outer ridge of my hand. It's something I struggled with a few months back when I started to improve my arpeggios. Personally, I'd experiment with pronation and supination. Something I've been finding useful recently is to very slowly roll back and forth between both extremes- with the main concern being a sense of length that is created as passively as possible. Imagine if someone is pulling your fingers slightly away from you and shoulder is pulling lightly backwards (while drifting the elbow very slightly outwards) and everything else in between is totally loose. From here, you'll probably find that you have room to go back and forth between both directions. If you can't do it on the full interval of a fourth, start with a third or even a second like in scales. In the end, I don't think anything greatly matters except the ability to be extremely comfortable in this position- in a way that does not involve the arm feeling forcibly held forwards. Sometimes I do it with extreme tilt towards the fifth, but other times I'll practise with the other extreme and have the thumb right under the fifth, as you say. One thing I'd never do would be deviated towards the thumb. I think it's pretty much impossible to feel like your hanging back from there. What I'm talking about is just the most natural sense of a line that you can form- ie. with the bare minimum level of twisting in the wrist that is possible. If any slight twisting occurs, it should be in response to movement from the shoulder- not directly from the hand. However, the good thing about stopping and hanging back is that it can correct any such twisting and give a feel for the position that should have been there to start with. Personally, I'm having more problems with passing fingers over the thumb in arpeggios than passing the thumb under. I think my thumb passes rather smoothly now- with minimal up and down motion in the arm. However, I realised that I still hold ever so slightly forwards when descending in the r.h. This slight sense of bunching up in the chain is causing a little bobbling at high speeds. When I feel that slight sense of the whole arm wanting to hang back, it's easier to feel that there's a flick into the 3rd or 4th- rather than the sense of manually grinding it over the top.

Thanks Andrew. Just playing around on the table top seems to reveal that the tension I mentioned is generated with pronation even away from the piano (though in smaller amounts), so I think that's the first port of call. It does not occur if I hold my arm in mid air, though. I'll start small with a second, then build up to a third and fourth.