Horowitz's Scherzo 3

I consider Horowitz's recording of Chopin's Scherzo #3 in c# minor to the best recording ever made of that piece. No one has the demonic intensity that Horowitz has in this piece. Surprisingly enough, I encountered a pianist who only had a lukewarm reaction to Horowitz's Scherzo. He teaches piano in conjunction with Alexander technique and puts great emphasis on freedom of the entire body. This teacher felt that Horowitz was trying too hard to generate energy in the octave section, that his tone didn't have a sufficient quantity of overtones, and that he sounded like he was physically tense. In the teacher's opinion, Horowitz sounded like he was tired by the time he got to the choral section, as his sound allegedly didn't have easy resonance. I'd be interested to hear what you think of the performance and of the Alexander teacher's reaction. Although Arrau claimed that Horowitz was incredibly stiff in the arms, I'm a little skeptical of the teacher's assertion that Horowitz was tight during the fast section. His sound had an explosive, sonorous quality to it, but I believe that such a sonority is normally achieved through freedom, not through unnecessary tension. Horowitz's chords had a cutting, aggressive quality to them, but they didn't sound harsh or percussive.

I consider Horowitz's recording of Chopin's Scherzo #3 in c# minor to the best recording ever made of that piece. No one has the demonic intensity that Horowitz has in this piece. Surprisingly enough, I encountered a pianist who only had a lukewarm reaction to Horowitz's Scherzo. He teaches piano in conjunction with Alexander technique and puts great emphasis on freedom of the entire body. This teacher felt that Horowitz was trying too hard to generate energy in the octave section, that his tone didn't have a sufficient quantity of overtones, and that he sounded like he was physically tense. In the teacher's opinion, Horowitz sounded like he was tired by the time he got to the choral section, as his sound allegedly didn't have easy resonance. I'd be interested to hear what you think of the performance and of the Alexander teacher's reaction. Although Arrau claimed that Horowitz was incrdibly stiff in the arms, I'm a little skeptical of the teacher's assertion that Horowitz was tight during the fast section. His sound had an explosive, sonorous quality to it, but I believe that such a sonority is normally achieved through freedom, not through unnecessary tension. Horowitz's chords had a cutting, aggressive quality to them, but they didn't sound harsh or percussive. Personally, I was rather disappointed by this recording. It's the only Schezo I didn't like from Horowitz. I forget the details, but I do remember that it sounded like a bit of struggle, compared to the flow Rachmaninoff gets, say. Probably the best recording I've heard is by Benjamin Grosvenor. He gets extreme driving energy coupled with extreme lightness and ease.

In what way do you think it sounded like a struggle? Interestingly enough, Horowitz himself remarked that most pianists play the Third Scherzo way too fast because they are so eager to show off his their octaves, and he singled out Rachmaninov as a notorious example. While Rachmaninov's recording is technically superb, I think that his octaves are too fast and light. Horowitz's octaves sound much more dramatic and sonorous, which I think is more appropriate for the piece.

I tend to agree with Lucio here. It's a great performance for the reasons he states. Grosvenor does the standard rip-through but if you listen closely you will not find nearly as much pianism or musicianship. Who wants lightness and ease anyway, these octaves should be desperate! It was as true back in the 50's as it was in the 80's - Horowitz always played with composer's mind. I am happy to find out about this because I didn't know he ever recorded it. The recording was obviously never released because of the many audible edits (with pitch changes even!) but it still is classic Horowitz. Arrau of course was completely out of line saying H's arms were stiff. Listen to those octaves, they are sharp, incisive but light and incredibly bouncy! No way a stiff arm could even come close to that sound! AFF

Arrau of course was completely out of line saying H's arms were stiff. Listen to those octaves, they are sharp, incisive but light and incredibly bouncy! No way a stiff arm could even come close to that sound! AFF I'm glad that you enjoyed the performance, Prof. Fraser. When you describe Horowitz's octaves as "light", are you referring to the fact that they do not sound labored or artificially thick? Horowitz's octaves sound rich, sonorous, dramatic, and as sharp as bullets- all qualities that people would normally associate with a massive, heavy sound, as opposed to a light sound. If you listen to Rachmaninov's recording of the Third Scherzo, his octaves sound very lightweight, especially in comparison to Horowitz's massive sound. However, the octaves do have an incredibly lithe and free quality to them, which may be the lightness that you're referring to. The explosive quality of sound that Horowitz produces during fortissimo passages (although it is probably just the illusion of loudness, as Prof. Fraser has explained) is simply stunning. No other pianist could produce that type of sound, and it was clearly the result of superb structural organization throughout the entire body. I honestly think that the Alexander teacher/pianist has some misconceptions about how sound is produced. It is inconceivable that Horowitz could generate that explosive, sonorous tone if he was physically tense. To the contrary, he must have been extremely well-coordinated to play like that. Actually, the recording was commercially released, on record and later on CD: RCA Victor GD 60463.

In what way do you think it sounded like a struggle? Interestingly enough, Horowitz himself remarked that most pianists play the Third Scherzo way too fast because they are so eager to show off his their octaves, and he singled out Rachmaninov as a notorious example. While Rachmaninov's recording is technically superb, I think that his octaves are too fast and light. Horowitz's octaves sound much more dramatic and sonorous, which I think is more appropriate for the piece. Actually, I listened again and enjoyed much more than I had remembered. I do prefer more of a Scherzo feel, but perhaps I was judging too strongly against other performances.

I tend to agree with Lucio here. It's a great performance for the reasons he states. Grosvenor does the standard rip-through but if you listen closely you will not find nearly as much pianism or musicianship. Who wants lightness and ease anyway, these octaves should be desperate! It was as true back in the 50's as it was in the 80's - Horowitz always played with composer's mind. Have you heard Grosvenor's performance on the Decca CD? It's mostly light, but he involves extremely punchy accentuation in various places. It makes for the impression of very percussive jabs, without ever actually involving anything loud. Personally, I prefer the kind of sounds associated with pianists like Hofmann and Cherkassky (which Grosvenor's recording reminds me of enormously) to ongoing heaviness in this Scherzo. For me, Horowitz is needlessly severe- with relatively little humour. Grosvenor manages some pretty staggering effects in the leggiero interludes to the Chorale. The combination of lightness and articulated precision is remarkable.

In my view, Chopin's Scherzo #3 in c# minor isn't supposed to sound like a typical Scherzo- certainly not in the Beethovenian sense. For the most part, Chopin's Scherzi aren't the lightweight "jokes" that Beethoven frequently wrote. To the contrary, the Chopin Scherzi are very serious, dramatic compositions. The Fourth Scherzo is the only one that resembles the prototypically humorous character of a Scherzo. To my ears, the Third Scherzo is almost Lisztian in its drama. For that reason, I believe that the severity and ferociousness that Horowitz brings to the piece is most welcome.

I definitely agree in that respect- but I think the drama comes out even better if you get plenty of genuine lightness to contrast. Even in the most bitter of scherzos, the title still means "joke". At times, I think this Scherzo should go into something of a dance-like feel even. I like a constant alternation of drama and silliness. I think Grosvenor captures this absolutely superbly in all 4 Scherzos. He does some remarkable things in the 2nd too- with various runs played with no pedal at all. There are far more humorous quirks in his performance than one typically encounters- but there's no lack of seriousness elsewhere.

I am basically with Lucio in all this, yes, Lucio that's what I meant when I called Horowitz's octaves "light," and yes I agree that this Scherzo is not exactly a joke but a drama of epic proportions. But Andrew, your description of Benjamin's CD has intrigued me - is there any way you could bring it to Stuttgart so I could have a listen? And yes, we must indeed wonder why Chopin named the first three Scherzi as he did. One clue is surely their musical form: they all take the basic ABA of the old sonata form scherzo, a much less-evolved form than the Ballades, Chopin's other large-scale 'free-form' dramas. Interestingly enough, certain elements of Scherzi #1 and #2 are joke-like, casting a devilish hue to the music absent from Chopin's other dramas. I'm thinking of the crazy opening running pattern leading up to the insane, sudden stop on the high B of Scherzo #1, or the opening "burps" of Scherzo #2. Even the broken chord decorations of the chorale in Scherzo #3 could be construed as at least somewhat joke-like, an unexpected and unusual but beautiful coloration of the chorale theme itself... And there's something diabolical about the opening theme especially when Chopin leaves off octaves and starts again in single notes. Could these first three Scherzi be Chopin's take on Mephisto Waltz? Compare the opening octaves of Scherzo #3 to the closing octaves of Mephisto... AFF