Examples of non-skeletal playing?

Valentina has superb facility, and the high wrist helps her use her skeleton most effectively. Thomas Mark in cites the wrist as the keystone of the hand's arch, whereas in my book and DVD I cite the metacarpal-phalangeal joint. As it turns out, if you watch any of the big guys (Horowitz, Rubinstein) they use the metacarpal-phalangeal joint up until about mezzoforte, but for anything louder the wrist takes over. Of course, their lumbricals continue to work just fine, so although the wrist would seem to impinge on the hand's arch, it doesn't collapse. The metacarpal-phalangeal remains the 'subsidiary keystone.' I think she lives in Miami... AFF

For extremely loud playing, the elbow becomes the keystone, right? (Like in that Nyiregyhazi topic)

I sit so low that it's impossible for me to even come close to doing that. And in any case, the elbow bends the other way so even if it was totally straight, it still would not be a keystone. But I know what you're talking about - there's a sense of straightening the whole arm or using the shoulder as the fulcrum of the lever that is bringing the fingers into the keys... Sorry I couldn't find the Nyiregyhazi topic... AFF

Seems it's gone .. Shame, since there was a video and everything.

As Van Cliburn Gold medalist in 2001, Olga Kern must have something on the ball, but I have a hard time seeing a clearly defined arch in any of Ms. Kern's playing on this clip: So is this another instance of "high wrist technique" like Valentina? --Rush

The arch is there, it is simply not pronounced because her hand is on the small side. I don't see how some commenters can prefer her performance to Horowitz's - it lacks his colour, differentiation of sound levels... At 1:49 there is the typical "small pianist" distortion of triplet rhythm which indicates a lack of command of her sound... At 3:28 the under the hand shot clearly shows how wonderfully her right thumb is differentiated from the rest of the hand - it is way down under, not cramped up close, and this indicates a very well-functioning arch. ALl the other "under hand" shots show something similar. But at 3:40 look at that cramped left hand position: that's what makes you think there is no arch, and here it certainly looks that way. But even there you can catch a glimpse of the left THUMB falling down and in to the keyboard, well away from the hand. So even though the arch seems fallen and the fingers cramped, she gets by by propping the whole thing up with her thumb. Again at 4:55 her arch looks totally collapsed, and yet her sound is not so bad. Of course it would be bigger if she cultivated the arch, but it remains fairly healthy. How can she do it? I suspect it is another slightly perverse but admissible form of skeletality where the bones are jammed down into the key in a straight line. The bones of an arch relate to each other in a curved line - she uses those same bones in a straight line, which can actually feel more stable. I have seen Kemal doing something similar at times. Look carefully at 5:05: the arch seems collapsed but again the thumb is well away from the hand, and in addition her lumbricals are obviously working well. She can BE in a collapsed position without being in a collapsed STATE - her hand is not dead inside but very active. At 6:45 the typical overly loose wrist that gives the pianist relaxation but robs her of sound. If she found her arch she could dispense with the floppy wrist and her playing would gain in majesty. At 7:14 she is certainly doing something right - the sound positively bites, it's really exciting. And from here to the end I find it really great! Gives me chills. She has great sound and feels the exultant arch of the spun out melody just right. Her performance is convincing and satisfying because we sense that she is really giving her all - she is really well-prepared and has totally given herself, body and soul to the piece. Who can fault her for not having Horowitz's body and soul? There is something beautiful in seeing someone really plumb the full depths of his or her resources. I analyse this in quite some detail because the original question (where's her arch?) also intrigued me. Olga has found her way to make the piano really sound - perhaps we can learn from it! AFF

Interesting, in "What every pianist needs to know about the body" it is suggested we do exactly this - so that all of our weight is directed to our sit-bones, and not the back of our legs, thus allowing us to put our legs anywhere easily. I just tried a variation of this, rotating the upper arm upward & out so that flexing the elbow brings the forearm down,almost verticle to the keboard. If you drew a line between the fingertip and the shoulder, every joint would be above it. It feels like I can play chords with my entire torso. Also, I found the - he does just as you describe, straightening the whole arm out. A school of thought is to keep the top of the hand lined up with the forearm. The theory is that by doing this one avoids friction (that would be caused by a bent wrist) when the tendons that connect muscles in the forearm to the fingers contract through the wrist. This approach is similar to what movement experts prescribe to avoid/treat typing injuries. I do not know of experiments or clinical trials that substantiate this approach. Two assumptions are behind this recommendation: first, avoiding injury has priority; second, the forearm muscles are active when playing the piano. I think the second assumption is more accurlately described as being "The tendons are moving while we play piano", and isn't this true? The tendons are connected to the fingers, so if we move the fingers - even if it doesn't involve the forearm muscles - won't the tendons move as well? Re the original topic: How's this for askelitality? he has a very low arch most of the times, but produces (To me) a very interesting performance with great sonority.

Re the original topic: How's this for askelitality? he has a very low arch most of the times, but produces (To me) a very interesting performance with great sonority. Thanks for posting this. His wrist is often below the key's surface. His knuckles are sunken! Looks like what I have read of the old Stuttgart school. ocd

I think all finger movements are activated by forearm muscles. No matter how gently I move them, I feel some activity up there... As for the David Smith Debussy video - he uses his arch very well most of the time but generally drops it for large chords and most noticeably in fast running passages. I have seen that hand elsewhere, most noticeably in Kemal Gekich and in photos of Wanda Landowska, both formidable pianists as is David Smith. This illustrates the idea that once the lumbricals are activated, they can work in any position. The position we see is the one most convenient for that pianist's hand in that configuration - it's the one that best gets the job done, and there's certainly nothing dysfunctional about it. Now whether it's skeletal or not - hmmm I think I am going to have to rethink my definition. Anybody wanna help me out on that one? AFF

I was specifically talking about, for example you are just sitting there and then someone walked up to you and started wiggling your fingers all about. Would this move the tendons ?